a lot of people do not understand what omarchy actually *is* and why it is making progress where traditional distributions have failed.

they focus on the fact that omarchy *is* a vanity distro, that it is basically a collection of configuration files and some shell scripts gluing them together.

and omarchy is that.

but omarchy is also marketing and devrel, and a consolidation of the linux experience into a product format.

in fact, that is most of what omarchy actually *is*.

building a technical community that understands & executes on these things would be the goal of what i propose building

in essence omarchy is a mechanism to take linux and turn it into a product, in the same way that macOS takes darwin and turns it into a product.

traditional linux distributions, by comparison, aren't defined products, they are work output from technical communities, and the design of them is approached from that philosophy.

somebody has already suggested that we should build this on Nix or whatever.

and like, you're just not getting the point.

the package management? flatpak.

managing software needs to be obvious. package managers ain't it.

on mac, you install apps from either the app store or by dragging them to the applications folder.

this thread is not an invite to tell me about your favorite linux distro and why you think it defeats my thesis.

it doesn't.

and certainly omarchy doesn't meet the thesis.

omarchy is basically the grifter aliexpress version of the thesis

given this, such a distribution should be focused on three major things

1. a cohesive design aesthetic

2. providing just enough substrate to boot flatpak apps

3. integrating servo into the desktop environment for "web apps"

in the most extreme interpretation, the desktop *itself* is a flatpak app

but i am not actually sure if that is possible atm

anyway i am muting this thread, i'll update folks on whether i decide to move forward on this after alpineconf

@ariadne @elementary exists, it just isn't hyped enough.

@ariadne oh, gobolinux

@dysfun @ariadne

gobbolinux?

@ariadne I really liked something I saw once a long time ago on (I think it was) porteus. Software was all distributed in compressed packages that you could just double click to install (it got mounted into the running os so it was accessible). But that ability to just download and have it installed immediately was very nice.

@ariadne so like, flatpak already has a distribution: flathub

@whitequark correct.

@ariadne what do you want to do different? (one thing I notice is that FlatHub isn't exactly a product, either)

@whitequark nothing. there is nothing wrong with flathub.

what i am proposing is building just enough of a distribution to boot a shell, and then have the real apps come from flathub.

@ariadne oh, that makes a lot of sense. I'm for it, though it's not obvious how to generate enough mindshare with this plan

@whitequark that's where I come in, specifically. i might not be DHH, but i have enough clout to pull this off.

@ariadne nice

@noel @whitequark no, silverblue is a project to produce a linux distribution.

omarchy is a *product*, not a *distro*.

@noel @whitequark or to put it in linux terms, you're thinking distros, i'm thinking SteamOS.

@ariadne as long as it doesn't have sev0 blockers like the apple app store does. i've never been able to use it on my work macbook because it asks me to verify my details, asks for an address, then rejects the address because it's missing a field that isn't even on the form. it's been over a year and it's still broken.

@gsuberland @ariadne oh yeah, i've been locked out of my apple account for... 8 years? i think? because of something similar.

@LunaDragofelis mint is nothing like what i am thinking about building

@LunaDragofelis what i am proposing is building just enough of a distro to bootstrap access to flathub

@ariadne tali express x.x

@ariadne it's not that good

@dysfun Temu Hitler? @ariadne

@bremner @ariadne that's probably closer to the mark

@ariadne 🙏 sensei

@ariadne
I've thought about making an arch distro. I've made my own meta packages in the past. It's dead simple.
In a way I made my own distro.

@ariadne I'd be interested in helping out in this and will keep an eye out for future posts 👀

@ariadne The product should be called Pyrénées, obviously

@ariadne very early in waylands development there was the idea of a "system compositor". Something like that could absolutely allow a desktops display server to run in user space without privileged API access. Wlroots already supports rendering to a window. Mutter does too, but I am not sure that still works if you load the entirey of gnome shell.

@ariadne I like 3 a lot

@ariadne Or homebrew for all the non gui (and even some) apps.

@ariadne the nix comment is perfect example of putting technology first instead of user first.

You don't even need that many packages to begin with.

@siwek yes, hence "the package management? flatpak"

@ariadne Nah we should be using Guix for packaging, definitely, that won't cause any problems for sure.

@ariadne This is pretty much exactly the goal of end-user GNOME OS

https://blogs.gnome.org/adrianvovk/2024/10/25/a-desktop-for-all/

@ariadne isn't a @danirabbit 's Elementary OS also some for of product based on a linux distro ?

(Also, when you take something like Fedora Workstation / KDE I feel you get something that is an opinionated product).

@Sobex @danirabbit yes, elementaryOS is an example of a productized linux

and it is a good example

but i would not say that it reflects the lesson omarchy is teaching us

@ariadne @danirabbit Hmhmm 🙂‍↕️ .

What are omarchy's lesson we should be learning from ?

@Sobex @danirabbit

to understand the lesson, you must look at what omarchy actually *is*

which on a technical level, is not much

you are focusing on technical details when the focus of omarchy is *marketing*

@ariadne @Sobex @danirabbit it's pretty much "my way is the right way" with a lot of hype around it. sort of rails approach of convention over configuration but to linux.

@siwek @Sobex @danirabbit yes, hence my description of it as marketing

@ariadne @Sobex I’d say we’re kind of doing the opposite of Omarchy in that we do a lot of things that are not traditionally Linux-y and the prospect we’re selling isn’t, “be a leet haxor and rice your desktop”, but rather “Spend less time thinking about computer and more time doing interesting things”. The OS in elementary OS is not the product. The idea of not worrying about the OS is the product

@ariadne @Sobex which I think sometimes really disappoints that set of people who expect productized Linux. They wanted to feel like a leet haxor and use Terminal and tweak and customize things and that’s not at all what I’m selling

@danirabbit @Sobex yes, precisely. i think the aesthetic is an important element in the product design for *that* audience.

@ariadne @Sobex totally. That like vapor wave, bit fonts, etc aesthetic is very “Nintendo power glove” and I feel like the messaging hits on the white male youth anger at a world that isn’t as compliant with their supposed supremacy. Don’t be sad little white boy, you can “be somebody” from the comfort of your basement. Play with digital slaves. Embrace oligarchy. You’re the master in our vision of the world

@danirabbit @ariadne @Sobex well said but it's tragic that some people are this way

@danirabbit @ariadne @Sobex

"Welcome home, warrior, everyone is proud of you."

ref. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py9B1ePmpVs

@danirabbit @ariadne @Sobex

(clarification of intent: in this context, Omarchy is *un*-ironically doing what the song is satirizing (at least the way I interpreted it))

@danirabbit @Sobex yeah, basically, to me the challenge is to figure out how to make people feel empowered without the fascism

@ariadne for me the solution there is focusing on inclusive design. It completely solved my whole perspective on when and how to implement settings and what features matter to put it in a framework of how we can make the experience more inclusive

@danirabbit @ariadne @Sobex I thought all of those fuckers, leet people, used Kali, against all instructions, as a main OS

@danirabbit I think you're right to not focus on what those people want. The more important goal by far is usable personal computers for people who don't want to focus on their computer as an end in itself.

@ariadne @Sobex

@danirabbit @ariadne @Sobex I expect you're selling something more like my mom's 2011 iMac that wasn't running so well anymore, and she had newer computers, so asked me to fix it up before giving it away to one or another of the immigrant families our temple helps. I thought elementaryOS was the right choice for that, so on it went.

I don't think those new arrivals will have strong opinions about operating systems, but they'll need a smooth first-run experience, and elementaryOS sure has sanded that down for them.

@danirabbit @ariadne @Sobex dunno, maybe i've been at this for too long, but to me, most distros fulfill that job, except for rolling release things....
when i set linux up for friends, there is this one week or three where they run into hardware corner cases like sleep modes or the like, and then it just works....

@nettings possible! I find that the more experience someone has with desktop Linux the more they hate elementary OS, which I see as a success indicator personally haha

@danirabbit plz, can i haz l33t toggle updatez
( in all seriousness, not for elementary but in general, i would absolutely love some vim-style binded pretty css libadwaita gui that i can fly through)

@danirabbit fwiw, I feel like there are plenty us with lots of Linux desktop experience (since the mid-late 90s for me) who love elementary because of its simplicity and how well it works.

@nettings

@danirabbit @ariadne Hmm, silly question, what's Elementary's AI policy ?

(I'm wondering if there's a world where I can put it in my list as a noob friendly linux that isn't doing AI shit).

@Sobex we don’t use it! https://docs.elementary.io/contributor-guide/development/generative-ai-policy

@ariadne so it’s like a poorly made elementaryOS for white supremacists?

@chrisvest basically

@mkljczk yes it is the grifter version

@ariadne A consolidation of the linux experience... to what audience?

I have no interest in pleasing the audience Omarchy is appealing to.

I might have an interest in pleasing the audience your competing product would appeal to, depending on what it is.

@ska we should want to, because many of the users of omarchy are most likely not fascists, but just want to think of linux as a product, in the same way they think of macOS and Windows as products.

@ariadne @ska They most likely are installing it because the YouTubers they watch have done "publicherries" (ads disguised as reviews) of Omarchy. It also appeals to 'for power users' with a gazillion different hotkeys. That is not Linux as a product imho. Not sure if they have more users than Arch for example.

@ariadne @ska I agree that making a Linux distro more approachable by the everyday person would be a good thing. Omarchy might market itself as such, but its not. f/e it comes with 4+ terminals configured. Its not a focused, opinionated, experience.

ElementaryOS has been working on a desktop experience for regular users for a long time. Maybe with more funds for marketing they could be more successful? idk. ikt marketing is the most important thing to drive adoption.

https://elementary.io/

@ariadne @ska I do think that building a more polished desktop opinionated desktop on top of say Alpine Linux. With a welcoming wizard and contextual help menus. Built-in themes, Custom wallpapers, etc. would be a good thing to get more people to use Linux.

@PuercoPop @ska that requires functioning governance in alpine to deliver with any level of confidence. it probably won't be alpine at this point.

@PuercoPop @ska maybe you should spend some time asking these people why they installed it then.

@ska @ariadne maybe that's the intention of #Omarchy:

• #Astroturfing of #Linux to enshure it's considered so vile and toxic that noone wants to touch it,
  • and thus people stick with #CCSS like #macOS & #Windows…

@ariadne I suspect the devrel part is why dell is so interested. They know that no matter how good their hardware is they can't compete with apple for developers as long as their machines are windows-centric.

@ariadne This came across my feed earlier today: https://stopomarchy.neocities.org/

"Omarchy is a political movement disguised as a Linux distro." A good soundbite to open with and then a bunch of details about what's going on.

@ariadne couldnt have said it better myself. i would love to help with a project like this if you do go down this route

@ariadne@social.treehouse.systems I may misunderstand what you mean, but isn't that essentially what Redhat and Ubuntu are, too? I mean "Linux as a product", regardless of whether one likes the result or respective vendors. ​​

@ariadne 80% branding 20% effort is all you need tbh

@cadey yeah, it is basically about aesthetics, and i think i have good taste in hacker aesthetics

@ariadne if i had the time i'd be more than willing to help, but i don't so i can't ^^

@cadey @ariadne I’ll happily donate some time/hosting/bandwidth/money/whatever :3

@arch @cadey @ariadne I’d be willing to contribute some Ansible for deploying the ricing just to throw shade at the fascists poor quality shell scripts.

@ariadne @cadey the only point of omarchy is getting the funding, and while you would be getting some funding (mostly from workers interested in actual substance, and we're not rich), you just wouldn't get the big bucks because you're not a Nazi.

@ska @cadey no, omarchy is many things, and it needs to be pushed back upon on all fronts. i don't care about the money, i have a day job.

@ariadne @cadey what is it besides a cash grab? The thing obviously isn't going to be viable. What technical need is it going to fulfill?

@ska @ariadne @cadey It's not to fulfill technical needs but to impose technical and social demands on real FOSS projects and people using fash money.

@dalias @ariadne @cadey Agreed, which is why I don't think you can fight it with a similar product that doesn't have the same financial power.

@ska @ariadne @cadey i think if we were rich, we wouldn't be

@SRAZKVT @ariadne @cadey If you got a wad of cash right now, indeed you wouldn't be - because you would still have your history, and your experience, and your ethics, coming from being raised as a non-wealthy person. Neither would I, neither would Ariadne or anyone decent in the community.

Someone who has been raised in a wealthy family has a different life experience. I don't think I would be an asshole if I had been, because my experience is that there was quite a streak of patriarchal thought in my family and I rejected it, but who can pretend to know?

@cadey @ariadne and vim-classic as the default vim

@ariadne you mean... a distro?

@dysfun yes, one that is turnkey and has a hacker-oriented aesthetic

@ariadne i would probably use it, i'm looking for a way off alpine on the desktop because, well you know why.

@ariadne the main difficulty of course is finding a desktop environment that isn't shit and isn't slop

@dysfun @ariadne I might switch from my current setup too(tumbleweed+niri spun off openSUSEsway) if you're building something cool

Bonus points if it's #niri!

@ariadne @dysfun AntiFa Linux

@ariadne @dysfun

turnkey, hacker aesthetic, and runs on macbook

@dcbaok @ariadne @dysfun so slackware

@wronglang @dcbaok @ariadne @dysfun

Slackware + CDE/Motif look-and-feel

@ariadne @dysfun

If its meant to be super specialized as turnkey, prepare for user footguns galore

@ariadne i'm in support of that but i worry that the whole point of omarchy is the vibecoding. "agentic desktop os" etc

@moses_izumi i'm still ruminating on whether alpine is a stable base to use for this

@moses_izumi governance. if I am building a derivative then I need my upstream to remain steady.

@ariadne @moses_izumi worst-case consider mkroot ( toybox + musl / linux )?

Worked for #OS1337…

@ariadne call it zeromarchy

@ariadne Be sure it's themed with Tokyonight moon! Best colour palette ever omfg. Also be sure it uses fish, fish is the best shell

@ariadne the parable of omarchy is that the little voice of self-doubt in your head is wrong, you are good enough (where we define good enough as "certainly better than this shit")

@ariadne i've been considering the same for a long time. I went so far as to set out goals for myself, but I've quickly realized that I dont (nor do most people) have capacity for such an endeavor *on their own*.

Definitely the hard part of organizing such a thing is the key consideration.

If you want help coordinating that, hmu :)

I've got thoughts. (Mostly I think that nix/guix, a functional approach to software & package management is the correct path forward for maintainability and customization purposes)

@scien your thoughts are basically the opposite direction of what a productized form of linux should look like.

for example, there should not be 'package management'. (there should, but it should not be a focus *at all*)

we are designing for people who want to use their computer, not customize their computers.

@ariadne it's mostly about the labor of the team, is the reason I'm pushing it forward. There's nothing antithetical about functional packagement management to consumer usage.

See experiments such as "snowflakeOS" that place its design behind a gui interface: https://snowflakeos.org/

Also see: my subsequent comment about drivers

@ariadne (An additional advantage is the functional management of hardware drivers, which allows a significant amount of issues that a smaller team has to deal with be much more manageable. See nixos-facter, nixos-hardware modules, and my own extension, nixos-facter-compat: https://codeberg.org/boneraven/nixos-facter-compat )

@ariadne if you do, count me in. i have absolute orthography in 2 languages, i can code, i'll do everything to show the fasc pos that there's more of us.

@ariadne I support this idea 100% as long as it doesn't use Hyprland. Niri might be good.