Can you give a few examples of someone who isn’t a bad person that, in your opinion, has been victimized by “cancel culture?”

Not specifically no, but I don’t think it would be hard to find some examples. But I’m not necessarily just talking about celebrities, but also a general attitude happening on online communities and platforms.

But your question actually is a good example: My first thought is; “Does this person honestly want to know, or are they asking in bad faith trying to trip me up?” That’s the attitude I feel like is everywhere these days.

Not trying to “trip you up.” But lamenting the idea of “cancel culture” has become kind of a red flag in the current discourse. Your post seems to vaguely refer to specific situations, so some specific examples will help us see where exactly you’re coming from.

Cancel culture is a far-right dog whistle, so one should be suspicious of anyone who uses it. Panic over ‘Cancel Culture’ is another example of right-wing projection

I’m neither right wing or know anyone right wing, and I vote left. And I’ve gotta tell you, nobody I know about uses ‘cancel culture’ as a dogwhistle for anything. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from, but I think you might be the victim of social media algorithm extremism.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from

You’d know if you’d read the article I just linked to.

I think you might be the victim of social media algorithm extremism.

“Far-left extremism” is yet another right-wing dog whistle. It’s becoming increasingly clear that you’ve been getting your information from right-wing media.

No amount of articles is going to change my personal experience of none of that being true.

I don’t know a single person in my circle of friends or even family that votes on the Right, or would even consider it.

We talk about cancel culture because that’s what’s going on right now, and that’s the word we have for it.

So do none of your friends or family vote orrr…

Because both democrats and republicans are right wing parties since both support and defend the capitalist class.

You know our country is murdering people around the globe constantly, right? And doing that regardless of which party is in charge. It’s a bipartisan murder machine. I fail to see how cancel culture is the thing you should be worrying about. Read theory, understand political concepts (including reading links posted by people trying to get you to expand your perspective on things), take a stance, and stand by it. Maybe paranoia about some undefined boogeyman just means you’re a bit uninformed and confused about why the world feels hostile to you. Seek answers in theories that aren’t right wing conspiracy.

I mean I can’t vote further left than possible in a two-party system without throwing my vote away and inadvertently support the right.

Voting for either right wing party doesn’t inadvertently support the right, it directly supports the right. The left starts at anti-capitalism. I’m not telling you this to convince you to be more blackpilled/doomer than you possibly are. I’m also not telling you not to vote. I’m telling you this so you can hopefully try to more accurately pinpoint the cause of the issues you’re seeing. It might help drive you to organize with other people who think similarly and want to change things for the better, which should alleviate what seems to be paralysis due to how you worry other people might react. Unless you’re a semi-famous person with harmful views or have a history of abusing people, I wouldn’t frame it as cancel culture.

What you’re experiencing as “people wanting to wait for you to trip up” could be any number of things. Shit’s rough out here, and people get tense when it’s hard to pay for groceries and rent just to work all day at a job that treats you terribly. Hurt people hurt people as they say. We also live under a system which rewards the most cruel, selfish, hypercompetitive, grifting people imaginable and places those people in positions of power to write/pass laws that make people more tense and less likely to offer kindness or grace to a stranger saying something that sounds suspicious. This isn’t just the loudmouth rude republicans. The entire system that is supported by our entire ruling body supports these kinds of people having more and more power even if the democrats act shocked and appalled.

If you want to weigh in on contemporary topics, it’s best to understand the topic first (easier said than done since research requires more than just watching a youtube video or reading some random person’s emotionally charged opinion about a thing in the news). But also, it’s no big deal to say “I haven’t researched the topic enough to give an opinion, but I’ll listen to your perspective if you’d like to share”. It’s also possible people might come in hot if you start to label yourself centrist without stating why you lean more right than a run-of-the-mill democrat. It comes across as suspicious. It’s suspicious to people who think the democrats and republicans are substantially different from each other, and it’s suspicious to people who think the democrats and republicans both need to be destroyed as soon as possible because they are destroying the world.

I’m also neurodivergent and it has taken a LOT of unlearning popular “understanding” of words/phrases that were harmful or ill-defined. Maybe because I’m also queer, it kind of jump started my journey on how to not let a sick society convince myself I should hate myself because I’m broken. Fuck that. BUT ALSO being neurodivergent (depending on the flavor) can really amplify a sort of social paranoia. A certain inflection in a way someone responded to you or a micro expression could be interpreted as the first step in being ostracized from your group. If you’re a people pleaser with rejection sensitivity, this will be very difficult to combat, but you can get through it!

You don’t vote left though, because left is almost never on the ballot. We have two right-wing parties, Democratic and Republican. When you vote Democratic, you’re usually voting to the left of a Republican, but you’re still voting right. The Democratic party doesn’t run socialist candidates; at best they run social democrats, AKA capitalism with a larger social safety net.

But what else do you want me to do?

I don’t have easy answers to that—if only I could. I’m just describing how deep the problem is.

I’m with you on that. I don’t feel like any of the choices I have will bring about the world I want anytime soon.

I don’t have any specific samples, but the fact that you’re fishing for red flags is kind of exactly what I’m talking about. It feels like were living in a “Suspicion Culture” which feels super weird and unsafe to me.

the fact you cant back anything up with any examples indicates your actual motivation.

youre 'centrist' but provide no 'centrist' policies you believe in because you know what people here will say about those policies.

Thanks for illustrating the ‘Presumed guilty’ culture I’m talking about.

Really toxic culture when people presume bad faith and feel entitled to act in bad faith.

It’s basically a lack of psychological safety on a societal scale. I wonder what that does to mental and physical health as well.

It’s less “presumed guilty” and more “cite your sources with evidence.” Which isn’t an attack or trap.

But there isn’t any sources or evidence to show that a person you don’t know isn’t evil, nor should you assume that they are and treat them like that from the outset. That’s borderline mental illness

Hence why I asked, “in your opinion.” You can at least give specific examples of the situations you’re referring to but not naming outright.

Not really, it’s an amalgamation of different experiences leading to a collective sense of the cultural attitude.

It’s obvious to everyone else I’ve talked to, if it isn’t to you I don’t think examples will change that.

So, which experiences, then?

I already stated that earlier; seeing celebrities get cancelled, and seeing people try to cancel each other on social media.

So, which ones?

Stop fucking with him

Which ones what?

Contra Points would be a good example. She had Buck Angel read a John Waters quote in a video she did back in 2019 (I think) and got harassed so badly she dropped off the face of the earth for a while. I remember seeing an interview with her where she described people doxing and threatening her. But her only real mistake was to not vet a voice actor and think about how it would be perceived for her to hire him.

But there is a real phenomenon online where influencers are ruthlessly doxed and threatened for small mistakes, what might be perceived as “incorrect takes”, and not being inclusive enough. I have followed several small to medium sized influencers on TikTok who have been harassed for similar reasons who have been forced to change they way they make content or stop all together for very minor stuff.

I don’t think I would call it cancel culture, but I don’t think I’d say anyone was wrong for using the label. But there are absolutely people trawling social media for anyone who presents themself as left of center that differ from the internet’s ontological idea of leftism and try to bully them into conformity.

Surely you’ve noticed in the comments sections of every social media platform that exists that people are attacking each other and the OP’s for petty differences and are often individuals who share 95% of their other beliefs.

Reading your post helped me sort my thoughts better, what I really feel like we’re living in is a “Suspicion Culture”.

Given the amount of disinformation, propaganda, astroturfing, outrage farming, bad faith arguments, and general hateful rhetoric that’s common on the internet, you have to be suspicious. We’d all love to take everyone at face value and consider all viewpoints, but without suspicion and skepticism you end up being inadvertently being part of the propaganda machine.

You think being curious and reflective will lead to something bad?

If you’re naive about it and treat every viewpoint as equally valid, then yes. The internet is filled with people just waiting to take advantage of curious minds. It’s why, for example, we keep having to fight anti-vaxxers no matter how much evidence disproves them. It’s why Joe Rogan became a friendly place for right-wing grifters. Its why the manosphere exists.

You need to view information suspicion and skepticism nowadays.

So in other words, you don’t trust your own brain to verify the difference between truth and lies.

That’s weird?

When presented with isolated information at face value? Hell no. You gather more information and evidence, research, analyze, then use all that to make an informed judgment. Some questions you should ask when you see a claim posted somewhere:

• Who is making the claim?
• Where are they making the claim?
• Why are they making the claim? Does it benefit them?
• What evidence is there to support the claim?

I kind of get what you mean, but it doesn’t really apply to me or people I know.

If you’re well educated and decently informed you can make an educated guess on the veracity of information 9/10 times before even looking it up and verifying it - which takes a few seconds these days.

I would be very careful with that assumption. People are very good at making lies look truthful, sometimes even sprinkling in a small kernel of truth to feed the bigger lie. Some even make a whole career out of it. it’s not easy to intuitively be able to tell fact from fiction like that.

I actually always suspect when a progressive voice is silenced like that that anti-progressive agent provocateurs are behind it, goading others on into this absurd manichaen mindset of purity tests and witch hunts that feel more like the tools of the enemy. Not even that paranoid an idea given that we know about the troll farms and bots.

Yeah I mean with things like COINTELPRO in our history and Russia’s Internet Research Agency in our present, it’s hard not to wonder. I don’t think there is good documentation for it, but the rumors floating around the periphery of the internet seem to suggest that foreign agents have been using AI powered bot farms to sow political division and erode trust in institutions. There are also networks of well funded right wing political operators using similar networks to divide the left exactly like you are suggesting.

But there are definitely “true believers” out there that are real live human beings acting in good faith, even if their methods and messages may be bad. My guess is it’s probably something like 30% true believers who get platformed and amplified by the other 70% of sock puppets, AI bots, and cynical actors.

That is a good example. I’m with you in that I wouldn’t necessarily call it “canceling.” It seems like more of a symptom of several factors: “outrage capitalism,” parasocial relationships replacing real human interaction, and our culture of entitlement and exploitation making people think harassing behavior is acceptable.

It’s a societal problem that goes far beyond how we treat each other on the internet.

Al Franken.

Hey, yes 100%. Also I know exactly that when people read all this they’re going to read it in the worst possible light. There’s a lot of language that one learns to self-censor because you know people are looking to classify you as something and place you on a hierarchy so sometimes it’s better just to give them as little info as possible.

I don’t want to examine your political beliefs or why you think you’re a centrist. There’s probably something going on there that I’d rather not know about but I want you to know it happens to all kinds of neurodiverse people. We don’t give the correct signals and today everyone is going by vibes to determine who is an ally.

Lurk around. Find the helpers, and protect your peace. Also you should note on the fediverse there’s a diverse range of servers with different askquestion communities. You’ll get a wide range of responses characteristic of the instance you post on.

!ask@piefed.social

!asklemmy@lemmy.world

!askbeehaw@beehaw.org

!autism@lemmy.world

!neurodivergence@beehaw.org

!neurodiverse@hexbear.net

!neurodivergent@discuss.online

Thankyou. In the post I already said I voted left but someone literally said my post was a dogwhistle for cancel culture, how does that even make sense? I know you said you didn’t want to examine my beliefs (thanks for making me not feel interrogated) I’m a centrist because I don’t want to be limited to a two-party system, I would prefer to vote for a green party instead. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t make me a fascist, but honestly I’m not even sure what the categories mean anymore.

Thanks a lot for the links!

It’s complicated, but you’ll pick it up as you go. I’m pretty cautious about discussing what is or isn’t a dogwhistle out in the open because, like you said, people are watching for eachother to slip up.

Okay you probably aren’t into anything that would scare most people, it’s just easy to draw certain folk’s ire. There have been conversations had in this space recently about it. Good luck, I know you’ll make some friends soon 🙂

Being a “centrist” isn’t a principled political position, it’s triangulation. As fascism continues to gain purchase and move the Overton window rightward within the imperial core, the “center” lurches rightward along with it.

Centrism is a right-wing position. There is a bright line between the left and the right: who should own the means of production, the working class or the capitalist class?

This feels exactly like the kind of “You’re either with us or the fascists” rhetoric I talked about.

i like to ask people if they are pro fascist or antifascist. you cant be both.

i think we see where you are if you refuse to admit it. not making choices means choices are made on your behalf. your inaction is your decision.

I don’t think that’s a very healthy society: “Profess your innocence!”

But of course I’m anti-fascist. My utopia is a world-government wherein feeding and housing everyone is the top priority, so I’m probably further left than most people if we consider that to require a form of socialism or communism.

Then what views to you have that you would call centrist?

I’m not an ideologue, I don’t vote based on tribalism, but on practical solutions to problems.

I’m not fixated on progressiveness for the sake of progressiveness, nor on conservatism for the sake of conservatism.

I want progress when something isn’t working, and I want conservatism when things are working as they should be working.

You can’t even provide a single example.

How would you know? Did you ask for one, or did you go straight to assumptions?

Right now, are you proving that we’re not living in a Suspicion Culture?

Hey, just circled back around to check on you. Don’t get pulled into a debate with these people. They don’t care if you’re neurodiverse, they’re on something. Go, and be free

You made a claim and then have nothing to back it up.

Did I ask for one?

Then what views to you have that you would call centrist?

Yes, literally in the post you responded to where you gave empty platitudes. I didn’t go straight to assumptions. I asked a question and you skirted around it like in every other response in here.

Suspicion culture is something you just made up. You make a claim, I asked for details around it, and you deflected. Yea, people are going to be suspicious when someone comes off as trolling and won’t support their claims with specifics.

Does it feel good to you to communicate like this? It certainly doesn’t feel good for the receiver

I call out bullshit when I see it. I don’t have feelings for trolls.

Wow

That’s because there isn’t a secret third option between fascism and antifascism. You actually do have to pick a side, and the history of the last century shows which side “centrists” virtually always pick.

• 📺 Why Liberals Always Side with Fascists
• Liberalism and Fascism: Partners in Crime

I don’t know what to say to this, it’s like talking to a religious fanatic.

Like a religious inquisitor or something. Like you can’t see the human anymore.

If I may.

My country has a multi-party parliament and after the local flavour of fascists found its way into it, the parties that defined themselves as center, either center-left or center-right and center-center, diverged sharply into authoritarian (even if more or less subdued or veiled) rethoric and strong-arm policy, resorting to the fascist party for support for implementing policies, being those parties currently in office.

The “left” is still what it always was: pro humanitarian, sensible to the plights of the workers, immigrants, women, LGBTQ+, etc, but gets thrown the usual mixed bag of insults and dismissals to keep the public entertained and enraged against those parties and maintain the status quo.

I understand you position but it is an unsustainable one. You have to define your stance on issues and fully reject labelling. As you carry your position it is a handful of nothing. And I do understand and respect your remark on seeing such matter reduced to tribalisms because they are but defining oneself as being right, center or left is equivalent to subscribing to a political horoscope: it’s reductionist, generalist and simply stupid.

And here’s the dehumanization.

Wait I read that wrong

Don’t want to take sides? Crying about cancel culture?
Is that you Ed Sheeran?

Because they’re right. And now we all know which side you choose.

There aren’t any sides man, there are just humans like you

Yes there’s fascists and then there’s people opposed to fascists. And anyone willing to support Fascism is not a human anything like me.

True, once life is black and white real humans can’t really relate anymore

If your views on fascism aren’t black and white you’re a fucking fascist. You just maybe don’t know it yet.

Yuuup. Progressives say they need to target centrists and independents… anyone undecided who could vote right wing for all intents and purposes is right wing.

Neurodivergent people have always been subject to misunderstanding and preemptory judgement—maybe “cancel culture” is the current framework within which that issue appears to manifest itself, but it’s not the cause.

I mean that’s for sure, but it seems bigger than that and neurotypicals are being targeted as well.

It’s gotten much worse in recent years, but yes, there are an alarming number of people out there who zealously attack influencers and creators left of center to enforce their version of purity politics. You can’t really have a nuanced conversation about any of the political issues of the day without getting dragged, harassed, or threatened.

But I don’t think you should let that stop you. There are other factors at play making that problem seem worse than it is. For one, yes there are real human beings who hold their political beliefs zealously and cannot handle any challenge or idea that might call their own ideals into question. They run rampant in the comment sections of pretty much every platform. But there are also other cynical actors at work as well. It’s somewhat well documented that foreign agents use bot farms and AI to destabilize public trust and one of the ways they do it is to sow division within political groupings. There are also local (to the western world) operators doing the same thing. It’s impossible to tell the difference between the human zealot and the bot agitator or what percentage each group makes up, but it’s safe to assume the automated commenters are a significant portion of the population.

Do your thing, block/ignore the haters, it’s just noise.

Glad to know it’s not just me. Feels like all nuance has disappeared in favor of tribalism where there is no actual purpose to conversation outside of professing or confirming your allegiance.

Thanks for the encouragement, and I hadn’t thought of the destablization bot angle. Crazy to think about, but a fact nonetheless.

Just look at the comments section of your post. So many people have seen the phrase cancel culture and ignored everything else you said just to accuse you of some venal sin in their eyes. I think I saw a few people trying to accuse you of being a secret right winger because you said you’re centrist.

It’s sad because so many of the issues that we are facing today could use a nuanced discussion that isn’t limited to the binary for or against framing corporate-run media tries to force on everyone.

When everyone is angry and politically polarised; nuance is seen as weakness, and neutrality as the enemy

Yeah, get in to politics and they’ll destroy your life. Doesn’t matter what you did in your past, I’m sure they’ll find someone that knew you who they could pay enough to accuse you of something.

Ironically I feel like politicians are kind of immune to this, since apparently it’s fine if they don’t follow their morals and have all kinds of scandals.

But public people who aren’t politicians, seem in real danger.

the internet is an attention machine and outrage gets attention. talk to ppl irl and it’ll be more chill

Being “canceled” often seems to benefit someone in the long run, if they can keep it together and not respond by making grievance their entire online identity. In a sense it’s just attention and an opportunity for greater exposure.

Either way, you’re going to die someday. If there’s something you would like to do before that, you shouldn’t let fear of disapproval stop you.

But most people just break, don’t they? few become diamonds

But I agree in principle

can you give an example of anything you’re claiming here?

I’m not claiming anything here, but stating how I feel and asking if others have felt the same, and the comments say yes

The two US parties and their zealots have spent almost 48 years driving this division deep. They have abused the most effective strategies so much that their adherents don’t even know when they use them themselves. One of these strategies that saddens me the most is their perversion of language. They so rapidly turn useful words known for specific meanings into a derogatory term or manipulate the language around it in a way to paint an image of a concept so ugly that the mere mention can provoke immediate outrage. I will say that Republicans are the reason why language has been so twisted. Democrats have ignored it and moved on for too long, letting them get away with it. This division in language is not new, but what is new is how fast it happens and how it extends to pretty much the entire language. This is why everything is now so centered on emotion. The zealots can say literally anything, as long as it is expressed with exaggeration or authority they can raise a mob. Adherents have been convinced they are victims of persecution from the other tribe, fueling their devotion and outrage.

What I am saying is you should do it. Just be prepared for the attacks. Know the attacks are not personal. They will try to break you. Don’t let them. You don’t even have to rebut and probably should avoid it as it only fuels their emotions that they rely on. The best defense is to be an open book while presenting confidence and speaking with conviction. The hard part is converting enough of the voters who only hear emotion, so when you speak your conviction must carry gravitas. Also, it should be made clear the first time a tactic is used that you are not okay with their abusing the conversation. Not being dismissive as they are. Not letting them get away with it. Just making it clear that you are too mature for their bullshit. Tell them you are taking it seriously, even as they play their game.

I would do it, but I am not good at selling my convictions in speech. I get ignored easily by obtrusive zealots. People listen to me and give me authority, but only when they aren’t trying to be superior. I hope you have this skill or the time to master it.

This is exactly the impression I have as well.

Appreciate it man

The Internet, and social media in particular, allows and encourages aspects of human psychology that a better world would discourage. Be prepared.

Appreciate it