That should go swimmingly

Only if there’s a body of water near the terminal.

so yes!

Well, honestly, this might be one of the use cases where these “AI” tools could be useful. Pattern recognition is something they are actually great at accomplishing. That said, I am still skeptical and concerned that the algorithms are being designed and deployed mindfully.

we can’t even get self driving cars right yet, I’m not sure ATC is going to be any better (certainly not on whatever pittance the government will fund it). 99% reliability will probably be easy, it’s that last 1% that could take decades to fix.

We’ve had self flying and landing planes for years though. You can’t really compare controlled airspace to the chaos that is operating on the ground.

I’m still skeptical they won’t fuck it up, but this should be a manageable problem for ai.

That’s different than AI tho

That’s an example of a computer being utilized in the way ut should be (with predictable outcomes

Determinism is one of the greatest properties of a computer and should be the gold standard of any program. Guess what LLMs fundamentally can’t do?

Make a profit?

People don’t realize that LLMs are not computers.

LLMs are software that turns a computer (an incredibly powerful tool of reliability and precision) into an imitation of a room temperature IQ person who thinks they’re an infallible genius because they can search google.

We’ve had self flying and landing planes for years though

Because none of it relies on any kind of AI. It doesn’t have to make decisions, it just flies programmatically. If you commanded it to fly into the ground it would (has, Germanwings crash). Autopilot wont even respond to a collision avoidance resolution advisory.

Yet pilots still fly and land manually. And if those systems work so well why haven’t we had self-controlling air traffic for years too?

It's one of those things that can absolutely be done with care, effort, and money. But we lack a government that will put any of those toward the project. And the private sector will actively undermine it to scrape a few more pennies off the top.

this will not work with ATC, or even cars in general too many things can go wrong.

You’re absolutely right to push back, I should have landed that plane before it ran out of fuel. Would you like me to explore options for funerals?

The fuel is the load bearing component of the equation.

Worth stating plainly: arrival at the airport is gated on the fuel quantity being more than zero.

Or at least being within glide capability. Would you like me to calculate a glide ratio for your current flight configuration?

I generated a letter to the loved ones. Let me know if you want it to be less personal:

I hope this letter finds you well. Yesterday’s plane crash wasn’t just a terrible accident—it was a horrible mistake…

You have been added to the Best of Lemmy: sh.itjust.works/post/67115517

FAA describes the SMART system

The media and old boomers are going to love talking about this system the moment a plane crashes.

Young tech savvy people on Lemmy will embrace this system with open arms.

No, that’s just them signalling not to land there.

Welp, I’m never flying again. And fuck my house is in a main flight path.

If you’re in a main flight path you will be safe.

“It looks like I may have confused the available freeway lanes for a designated runway. Did you know I405 contains 523,000 times more asphalt than LAX? I will work on securing an additional freeway for future landings and I have prepared a list of new flight paths.”

I think they should test it out on the private jets first. Ya know, to make sure it all works great.

The proles get to roll the AI killbot dice. The humans will be reserved for private jets.

So a quick search suggests air traffic controllers make around $75,000 annually. $875 million would pay the salaries of 11,666 air traffic controllers for a decade at that wage.

Even considering inflation, training, medical, etc that $875,000,000 could pay for thousands of hired Amemricans for a decade. Republicans are literally the worst.

$75,000 annually

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports about double that as the median pay ($148,080).

I still agree with the rest of your math and think the investment is worth it, but just clarifying the number.

the other issue is aparently it’s hard to get people to do that job.

I do believe its considered top 2 most stressful jobs, not hard to see why

I know someone who’s atc. He described it as “very very slow Tetris, but when you misplace a piece someone dies.”

People might reconsider if we give them a 30hr work week, but still pay the full salary. Some jobs are just harder and time worked doesn’t equal effort. I’ve had 2 day stints that should have paid me more than the entire preceding month!

What I’m trying to say is that the people who run America are unwilling to pay to do it right.

It’s people like the ATC’s who run America. You are talking about the owner class who sit on their verandas drinking ice cold lemonade shouting “whip them harder and they’ll get more work done”

I was listening to live ATC broadcast this evening for O’Hare ground control.

Jesus tapdancing Christ, no idea how they do it.

All you hear is a steady stream of instructions like “j1234, approach 10L and hold, then sierra sierra golf tango tango alpha” which are “directions” for pilots to taxi to a gate.

They are ripping them off at hyperspeed, no mistakes. The audio quality of some pilots is just terrible but somehow they know wtf they said. They have dozens of planes on the ground at a time, organizing the chaos of them all without blinking. In the hour I listened, I heard one dude doing it all, though I think there are two different ground controllers.

Planes blocking taxiways, pilots misunderstanding instructions, someone is taking too long to push back from the gate and they’re making changes and adapting on the fly.

Holy shit y’all.

Listen for yourself and try to figure it out. Audio: www.liveatc.net/play/kord1n2_gnd_in.pls Ground mapd: www.flightaware.com/resources/airport/ORD/…/pdf

Good luck.

The audio quality of some pilots is just terrible but somehow they know wtf they said.

That is in my experience highly dependent on what kind of radio/antenna is used to record the live broadcast, it’s orientation and it’s location.

I have an Icom IC-R6 radio scanner, even at the airport with line of sight of the infrastructure you can still get a terrible reception if the angle of the radio is wrong, the antenna is wrong or you have parked in the wrong spot.

This touches on an interesting point: relying solely on radio for route instructions is archaic and we desperately need to overhaul it with a digital alternative. Why can’t we take some of that budget to modernize ATC?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=YeABJbvcJ_k&ra=m

I bet they could get more to do it if they paid more. You could give out a lot of raises with $875 million.

they could, but i think initially like requiring to apply to the training school, and then there is a waitlist, and you have to train in okhloma specifically is more than discouraging people.

A couple more schools across the breadth of the country a decade ago would have done more today than $100 billion of AI ATC would do today.

Which is a low bar admittedly, but the point has to be made.

It’s hard to find people with the requisite skills who can tolerate the shit working conditions and occasional extended periods of intense stress. I had a job that required me to interact with a group of controllers. Almost all had the cork in too tight. I met several who later died of heart attacks in their late 40s or early 50s.

Seems better yes, in EASA airspace ATC is around 100k when starting your career and 220k near retirement.

I bet FAA is within those numbers.

the workload is also pretty brutal, so it might not be worth it in the end, and the ability to go the training school also is competitive.

Entering the school is a bit annoying but you don’t need anything else besides having a brain and resisting stress. Not knowing if you will succeed is stressful but that goes for any school, and this one is paying you to attend it, not the other way around.

The workload is easy, I’m at the EU airways crossroads and working ATC is easy, I feel like I’m always on days off and I work less than 5h a day. Honestly it’s one of the best career you can do besides being rich and not working.

Maybe it’s because I’ve been doing that for more than a decade so it’s natural now.

And mostly, Europe isn’t FAA, I can’t tell for them but from what I’ve read it’s a shit show over there.

The problem is finding qualified people to be controllers. IiRC, something like 3000 apply for certification per year and only 150 make it.

This position should really pay alot more than it does

and its also a long waitlist, plus 2 years of schooling and you are training in only in one state for it.

Is it a long waitlist? I hadn’t heard that before, but its possible. I know they just recently shortened the process.

Maybe more people need to know retirement is at 50.

“The worst” and here I’ve been calling them racist inbred cunts for lesser reasons.

the problem with ATC, its competitive, and its long waitlist, with tons of DQ-ing conditions, and its like 2 year school in okhaloma(where the school is). presidents since reagan fired them all, really dint seem that interested in fast tracking or bringing more people on board for the job.

$875 million would pay the salaries of 11,666 air traffic controllers for a decade at that wage.

You’re off by a factor of 10 here. It’s either a year of wages for 11666 controllers or 10 years of wages for 1166 controllers.

Ah dammit, ty

Hopefully there are others who can speak with more knowledge on this.

Isn’t one of the problems that aircraft don’t have consistent, modern transponders so that they can be reliably seen by the towers? I think that was part of the DC crash between passenger plane and helicopter, no? ATC didn’t have good visibility of the helicopter, so they told the plane and the helicopter to just watch out for each other visually.

I don’t see AI helping all that much until all aircraft are retrofitted with modern transponders.

Lot of things didn’t go right in that crash. Mentour Pilot has a really good video on the subject.

ATC could see both of them no problem, but ATC is often overloaded and will pawn off responsibility to the pilots to maintain separation.

Legally speaking, the controller in that accident did their job correctly. The helicopter pilots assured the controller multiple times that they would pass behind the jet.

The current hot topic is ADSB IN. Most aircraft are required to have ADSB OUT these days, but very few aircraft (especially airliners) have recievers to display that info.

It’s direct, line of site communication from aircraft to aircraft. Exact position in relation to each other, right on your nav display.

My understanding is that it’s an upgrade to the current situational awareness provided by TCAS. TCAS is wonderful but broke down in the DCA crash because [I don’t remember the real reason so I’d just be guessing here]. TCAS should have saved the day, but there was something missing (probably the helicopter transponder wasn’t “participating” in the TCAS conversation that airplanes usually have (the TCAS computers, not the pilots)).

Would ADSB IN have helped prevent DCA? Yes, assuming the helicopter had it they would have had better situational awareness. If the helicopter had their transponder turned off, though, it’s not clear to me if they would be broadcasting ADSB for the airliner to see.

I guess the next time I want to travel internationally I’ll take a train to Canada and fly out from there.

My initial reaction was “well that’s gonna end badly”. But then I realised they are probably not talking about generative AI. ML approaches can be pretty useful for optimisation, so this might not be as bad as it sounds. Really depends on what the actual technology is and what purpose it’s being put to…

Nope, I’m almost certain they mean the same LLMs they use for anything else. If they are using grok in intelligence and military you think they won’t for this?

What are you basing that on? The article has some open speculation, but says it’s not known.

LLMs make no sense in this context. It’s not like they’re writing a report every time a plane comes in to land

I don’t see ANY comments in here where it’s clear that people read the fucking article.

“Har har, AI and ATC, I’ll make a funny joke about flying will be unsafe”. Yes, it’s expected, but if you actually read what this is - it’s going to issue predictions about how busy particular times are, basically.

ZERO use of the AI in the tower by ATC to control aircraft in any way.

Sure, they might try to introduce such a thing - at which time your jokes will actually apply!

That’s only step one. Just wait.

I can at least live with your comment. lol.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but we’re certainly not there yet - on this particular front.

I don’t see ANY comments in here where it’s clear that people read the fucking article.

Average Lemmy user: Get baited into a headline about AI and immediately bitch about how it’s the worst thing in the world. No nuance, no legitimate discussion about the issues, just rage.

It definitely seems like the 100% anti-AI NO MATTER WHAT people hold the majority. heh. Which is only annoying every so often, as I mostly agree with them. Just not totally agree. heh

There are a small number of cases where the current batch of AI tools are ok and fine. Certainty is the enemy, as per usual.

Reminds me of most liberal arguments. I usually agree with them, but there are some issues (like gun control) where I have to shake my head at the ignorance.

ZERO use of the AI in the tower by ATC to control aircraft in any way.

For now.

it’s going to issue predictions about how busy particular times are, basically.

and for that it’s somehow worth $875M.

We’re fucked.

In theory, an automated system should be able to outperform humans at a task like this under the right conditions. However, I don’t imagine throwing LLMs in the mix without redesigning the whole system for automation is going to end well, though.

8,750 salaries worth of money betting AI can do this with no actual evidence it can.

Absolute worst possible use of AI: something safety-critical.

I’m sorry, you’re right. I should not have directed that plane to the runway with the two planes that have already crashed into each other.

It’s fine the first two have obviously canceled each other out leaving the runway clear.

This is an Air Traffic Control system, once it’s on that a ground traffic control system.

No, no, it’s sorting the crashes. If it had directed the planes to other runways, then there would be more crashes to clean up.

That’s the end of me flying. The wife and I will now take extra days, get a rental and have us a road trip

“You were right to push back - that runway was in fact occupied”

I can’t see a single thing that could go wrong with this.

Well, here’s hoping they are in charge of Air Force One.

because we havent had enough air disasters in the past 2 years.

Hi Claude, How do I test my backup fiber link so I won’t find out it’s down when the primary is cut?

900 million could just hire a lot of skilled engineers and air traffic operators that can be well paid but that doesn’t sound as cool and futuristic as AI

AI is indeed to blame - but not like you think.
Trump’s ChatGPT prompt after translation into natural language: I want to kill some sand people for fun and giggles. Which country did fight back the least in the past against aerial attacks?

What an absolute slap in the face for the underpaid and overworked ATCs. Been bitching about more money for years?

Naaah how about your boss is now a clanker

Ah yes, the same technology that was used to kill 123 Iranian school children

The intern got the weights wrong for high value targets.

Is this an LLM style AI, or a machine learning AI.

If it’s a LLM, it’s not worth a penny

If it’s a true machine learning AI, then I can see the worth of it.