How about we just don’t suck the dicks of authoritarian wannabe dipshits that have proven they can’t secure any information properly and can’t run any institution properly?

I don’t know exactly what you mean, I just think for age gating there’s ways that are a lot better

That’s the issue. We don’t need nanny’s to age gate us on the internet. All it does is create a very short path to removing anonymity on the internet

Don’t mind some age gating tbh. It would have to be pretty convenient and anonymous though.

How do you imagine it will be anonymous? Or convenient, for that matter.

Easy. You set the age in the os (or age range) per system account.

Apps can then request this and allow/ deny based on it. Requires admin / sudo to update age range.

No need for 3rd parties, id or anything else.

If parents are concerned about it they can implement it easily. If not, they can ignore it.

But it needs to be verified there first in some way, and then services will need to somehow verify that your device properly verified it.

And which of those systems are secure themselves, oses and their manufacturers - the answer is none. None are secure enough to trust that private information on mandatory verification systems. Not the base systems nor any systems that would share any approval tokens.

Why does it need to be verified? If the parents set it up as an adult they can’t be mad when its treated as an adult?

that’s how we get to the point that the parents need to be made accountable. the only correct answer.

So any unchecked web/app developer can see if a child is visiting their site? No thanks. This will make children less safe.

I will VPN to mars before I upload my ID, or that of my child for that matter. Not a chance in hell.

They already want this, but in a worse way 😆

Government: we want to kill all women!

People: this is unacceptable

Government: we can compromise: we want to kill all black and trans women!

People: yay, deal! lets accept this, this is much better!

Well the implementation is going to be that you prove your age to the id app that only saves the info that you’re over 18. Then the id app just tells that info to the website (or app or whatever I guess). So the site doesn’t know who is trying to prove their age or even what their age is, just that they’re over 18.

It would be nice to have that sort of quick and easy app for verifying your personal information too. I don’t think we have one where I live. We always use a bank for that and that’s more hassle than I’d like

And how would that app verify you’ve given your actual age? Now you need to deanonymize yourself to that app and while random sites might not know who you are the app does and the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age).

So no, that’s no longer anonymous. In practice that’s just your government (as that’s the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you’re doing on the web. Is that really preferable to parents parenting their children?

The app is from the government and open source at every endpoint. You can see for yourself that it doesn’t track activity.

the government would never do that

I’d be more worried if the apps were closed source but the ones I’ve heard about that are making an actual implementation of the protocol are open source so you can see everything it is doing, who it is contacting etc

They already have. github.com/orgs/…/repositories

if you can even verify it, unlike the proposed EU identity app that adds in all the obfuscation, and anti-debugging DRM of the world, also denying operation on any device and operating system not directly made by one of the two tech monopolies in the field.

but that is not only what you should worry about. even with an actually auditable app, they just change it one day and practically nobody bats an eye. the common person can not and will not check anything, it updates automatically and thry know nothing. if they don’t comply, they are immediately excluded from half the world. the thing is auditability is a nice plus, but doesn’t actually matter, because it requires a fully benevolent government. if they want to push through a change, they can roll it out in 5 minutes across the whole country and no businesses can defy it.

You can use a driver’s license or your bank. Different methods to verify it to the app. After verification, the app won’t save the info, just the knowledge that you’re over 18.

the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age)

Not much of a worry locally. Disabling history is probably included in this (sort of porn mode/incognito, same as your browser). The info isn’t much use locally anyway

In practice that’s just your government (as that’s the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you’re doing on the web.

Government knows you’ve verified the app but they don’t know what you’re using the app for, it doesn’t have phone home. Your app is giving the site a generated cryptographic key, the site compares that to see if it is a valid key and then accepts it. The key doesn’t carry your personal info with it, so the central db doesn’t know who is being asked about, just whether the key is valid (so someone is 18+)

Now you’ve got a system without oversight. A child just needs an adult key and everything gets bypassed. And before you think it won’t be done, I know from my childhood friends who used their older sibling identification to buy alcohol without the older sibling even knowing it was being done. Kids are creative and they will find a way to bypass something without oversight. That arguably will put them in even greater danger because while kids are creative they’re not that great at assessing dangers. For example a bad actor could give keys to kids and then use that same key as blackmail to control them.

The child would need to get the app and have it verified (id and face scan, bank logins).

I know kids steal or fake ids but yeah not a reason imo to not card people hah

a bad actor could give keys to kids and then use that same key as blackmail to control them.

How would that work, be around to verify with the app or something?

I know kids steal or fake ids but yeah not a reason imo to not card people hah

This whole post exists because the need to card people and then use that card to verify that person and how it opens up the door for your identifiable information getting stolen.

The child would need to get the app and have it verified (id and face scan, bank logins).

How would that work, be around to verify with the app or something?

The way your proposed solution works is that the verification process is asynchronous. The government verifies the identity in the app and then the app is used to verify identity elsewhere. Those are two separate steps that don’t happen in succession. There’s bound to be some time between the two steps if for no other reason than for the government to push the new key into third party databases (because if it uses the pull method then you’ve reintroduced government tracking. That means there’s a timeframe where person A verifies themselves, gives the key to person B and then person B uses the key until it expires. Now you need to start building in safeguards to prevent keys from leaking from within the app.

I’ll ask a counter-question since my point was is it really preferable to parents parenting. How complex (which increases how costly the development will be) and how inconvenient does it have to get for you to consider that perhaps parenting is a better solution? Because I’ll also add this, this solution doesn’t prevent “bad parenting” because a bad parent can just identify themselves and let children use their identification to bypass whatever the kids want to bypass.

I’m against sending pictures of your card. Just showing your card to a shopkeeper, that’s fine imo.

I don’t think there being a delay once you originally setup the app is a big issue or takes more than a few minutes max. You do that first time and then your phone is generating the key based on the master key, the site confirms the key with the central server. That sort of handshake or what it is called happens almost instantly.

we all know all of that, you did not respond to any questions Goodeye asked from you

I didn’t realize there was some question at the end, thanks mentioning it

E: Answered it now

I think it’s supposed to be additional to parenting, like carding at stores

So lets just take kids off the internet. Sounds pretty great to me.

Man, that would be fun. Probably healthier for them too haha

Like parents actually parenting and activating the built in restrictions for their children’s devices?

It’s probably more effective done at the other end. It’s not like you can make parents parent

You actually can, it’s called regulations, policies and enforcement. Don’t vaccinate your crotch fruit? Cool, they can’t go to public school, and you just won a visit from child welfare

It’s not like we don’t have regulations, policies and (some) enforcement. But there’s still dogshit parents. And for this kind of thing, how would you even enforce it?

by denying childcare benefits, and giving a visit from child welfare.

the school should start the procedure when they see the kid scrolling social media regularly, or if the kid regularly says they want their phone (when somehow taken away) as that means they are already kinda addicted to it. child welfare investigates whether the suspicions are true, initiates denying benefits, and communicates directly with the parents being willing to support them improving the situation, including offering free assistance from child’s psychologist. then, the point becomes not denying benefits, but recognizing that they have little time to figure it out themselves, and giving all the help they need.

That sounds a lot more involved, expensive and burdensome to people than just having the site ask you to verify with the app

Why do we need to? What’s the risk, some unsupervised kid with neglectful parents might see porn? Oh man, just imagine the world-ending consequences if that happened!

I was thinking gambling but porn is illegal to buy for under 18-yo in some places so they might use the age gating for that too

That feels an even sillier concern; what is a child going to do on a gambling site without some adult payment method to access services? And if you say “well they can steal their parent’s credit card,” how would that not equally apply to a parent’s photo ID or anything else necessary for age-verification?

Where I live a lot of kids have bank accounts, but of course it would be silly to put a lot of money there. But can’t you deposit cash into bitcoin things and use them for payments or gift cards? I’ve seen those on some gambling sites.

And if you say “well they can steal their parent’s credit card,” how would that not equally apply to a parent’s photo ID or anything else necessary for age-verification?

Photo ID apparently needs a face scan too, it’s not enough to just have the ID. Then you get into what if they steal the ID, fool their parents and whatnot which… I don’t think that’s as much of a concern tbh

The whole credit card system worked until pron websites gave you stuff for free. The average kid couldn’t acquire a credit card without being caught.

I think no ASL covers it for the Internet. Going against the most basic rule is kind of ridiculous.

If it’s going to be implemented imo it’s better to do with a privacy respecting centralized fashion than sending your id pics all over the place

You can’t violate and protect privacy at the same time.

You can protect the identity and all other info of the person than if they’re over 18 or not. I think that’s a lot better than the other ways sites are now using.

Unless you think it of just as bad because a site knowing if you’re 18+ is a violation of privacy, so might as well give them everything haha

Your arguing for the elimination of privacy as a solution to privacy.

You are naive if you think this is anything other than a demand from advertisers to ensure it is human being advertised to and not a bot.

I don’t think you understand the situation. They’re already doing the id verification. They’re not going to stop with that. I’d much prefer telling a site I’m 18+ than having to send in photos of my id to every random website out there. 🤷‍♂️

They are not going to stop it with people like you rolling over. Pathetic, but I guess you can pretend there is a silver lining.

Oh wait, that silver lining is apparently you bending over, dropping trow, spreading those cheeks and shouting, “is that wide enough!”

That’s very nice but you could still have your fight about the thing while having a much better system in place. Then you get your fight against it and everyone gets less of their info out there.

It’s just a horrid system, sending pictures of your id with all your info on it, to random sites

I have already said I won’t be using any site requiring this unless there is a work around. I will not make advertisers lives easier. Fuck them.

While I am generally inclined to pick the lesser of two evils, not in this case. So while you are not wrong about a centralized system being less problematic, I personally cannot accept it. I gave up Meta, Zombie Twitter, Reddit, etc already.

I think even without sending pics of you id to random sites you can see the benefit of a system where the only info being shared is “18+ yes/no”. As many people won’t be fucked over by data leaks at least

As many people won’t be fucked over by data leaks at least

oh, yes, they will

How? Now people are sending their photo ids to many sites. With the app you’d be sending a cryptographic key that tells the site nothing else than the person who has this, is 18+

Does it, though?

Have the app you use to verify scan it so it can sanitize it

No. Fuck off

They’re already doing the verification and it’s not going away. I definitely prefer a better way to do it

That…doesn’t work. Just because you saw one dumb YouTuber say something doesn’t make it true.

I’m not sure if there’s some popular video you’re talking about but I’m talking about the EU ID proposal. Haven’t seen any videos about it

Fuck all that noise.