Replying to @⁨naught101@lemmy.world⁩

Not 40, but also don’t want my thoughts and comments to be an income stream for a for-profit organization, whether that be by selling my data for profit, training an LLM with my data, or contributing to an inescapable network effect that can be increasingly monetized by various means.

The modern social media platform is not designed to foster positive interactions, but rather to maximize shareholder value.

Replying to @⁨Zedstrian@sopuli.xyz⁩

Coming here for discussion and meme dopamine, Lemmy still has that intact. Reddit has killed it with bots, ads, and some heavy duty corporate lean on things.

r/castiron, dominated by Lodge Corpo as one example. Other “suggestions”, too early in the day to recall more names right now, are in a parrot circle of replies for brands, as above.

You can’t trust it as much, which is why, in part, people are here instead. More old, old Reddit feels, you know, before it became cool and was thus inevitably ruined.

Replying to @⁨Vespair@lemmy.zip⁩

When Facebook came around, I immediately saw what it would lead to. Hell, just the thought of sharing your personal details for anyone and everyone to read was extremely creepy to me. Any time I tried to communicate this to people asking me why I wasn’t on Facebook it achieved nothing. Pushback was useless, people want what they perceive as “convenience” even when they have to (almost literally) sell their souls to the machine. No, I don’t think pushback would have helped, because people want these - and I shudder to call them such - services. The Internet was doomed the day it became mainstream.

When I was young, I was called a nerd for using computers. People online were primarily nerds who cared about tech. Those days are long gone, and there was nothing that could’ve been done to prevent the rot. It was inevitable as the Internet became more popular.

The masses will always be asses. They don’t care. They will eat corporate slop and ask for seconds until their bloated corpses burst. The best we can do is create alternative infrastructures and wait with horror as they start to rot too.

Jesus, I think I’m having a bit of a blue day.

Replying to @⁨LovableSidekick@lemmy.world⁩

“Enshittification” has a more specific meaning than just “things getting shitty.” It’s about a product or service being purposefully made worse in order for the company controlling it to extract more profit by means more underhanded and exploitative than just raising the price.

Forum toxicity (sans some algorithm or bot farm egging it on for some nefarious purpose) is categorically a different thing than enshittification.

The Fediverse can’t enshittify in its current state because it’s not controlled by a corporation. In order for it to happen, it would have to be overwhelmed by federating with Threads or something like that.

Replying to an earlier post

I think a lot of you are projecting, lol

I love young people. My volunteer little sister just graduated and I used to work with trafficking victims. Listening to young people one-on-one is important and rewarding, I hope for both of us.

Reading a hasty thought from someone who doesn’t even know who they are yet every 30 seconds on the Internet on websites like reddit, where people skew really young, and taking that extremely seriously is not enjoyable, for adults or for them. And unfortunately, whatever stupid thing people say gets preserved on the Internet for WAY too long, all the more reason to disregard it quickly, but people really struggle with that online.

Replying to @⁨artyom@piefed.social⁩

I was contracted to work for a non-profit that helped teachers write and analyze student test scores for a few years. The non-profit ended when the CEO sold the company to another education company. The new education company has contracts with the department of defense in my country.

When I reflect upon the outcome. It would seem that the department of defense now has direct access to many more students who test scores are low. All lined up and analyzed. And I’m the one that automated the deployment of that system. I just quietly took my checks until my contract was no longer renewed.

From my point of view I did built a small part of the web. And I stood around and did nothing while the web/company/people around me were being consolidated. While the department of defense freely browsed some of the most vulnerable children/students in the country because they know poorer testing students are more likely to join the military for money.

A lot of people are going to die because of that analysis system in my opinion; And to me, that means I am responsible.

Replying to an earlier post

Well, maybe in some way. In some way we’re all responsible for the military-industrial complex that consumes unbelievable amounts of money in pursuit of global domination and “national security”.

Maybe you can do your part to break that up by educating children about the predatory nature of the military. About the many atrocities committed. And how they target people who don’t test well in school (but obviously aren’t necessarily stupid) because they’re more likely to do what they’re told and not question anything.

Replying to @⁨tachikoma@lemmy.today⁩

To be fair, you did not know, how what you build, would end up being used. How could you, especially since you were working for a non-profit, that helped teachers? It is not like you were building something obviously dangerous, weapons or some shit. Maybe you feel responsible, but expecting everyone to just not do anything, in fear of it being potentially misused for something nefarious, is no way to live. That way none should do anything.

Replying to @⁨Nemo@slrpnk.net⁩

They did something good-seeming in good faith, and someone else used that, for something evil later on. You would need the power to see into the future, to prevent stuff like that. If we are all to blame for something so indirect, then what does being responsible even mean anymore? That does not mean we should not strive to correct those wrongs, yes. But I do not think it makes you responsible for them either.

Replying to @⁨naught101@lemmy.world⁩

I like the Web.

I don’t like all of the websites out there and avoid using some, but I think that that was always going to be the case.

I guess that maybe it’s a little surprising that there was the degree of consolidation that there was among the broader population into use of some specific websites. But…well, network effect applies to social media, so you’d expect at least some natural tendency in that direction.

considers

I guess that the degree of shift to social media as a whole is surprising to me. Like, most really important websites are social media websites. But, well, I’d always used social media myself, even prior to the term being coined, so the idea that others might want to use it doesn’t seem that strange. BBSes, Usenet. I wasn’t a user of The WELL, but there’s another influential forum.

And a shift to Web-based social media was predicted. Those of us who were around probably remember use of the term “Web 2.0”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0

Web 2.0 (also known as participative, participatory,[1] web and social web)[2] refers to websites that emphasize user-generated content, ease of use, participatory culture, and interoperability (i.e., compatibility with other products, systems, and devices) for end users.

The term was coined by Darcy DiNucci in 1999[3] and later popularized by Tim O’Reilly and Dale Dougherty at the first Web 2.0 Conference in 2004.[4][5][6] Although the term mimics the numbering of software versions, it does not denote a formal change in the nature of the World Wide Web;[7] the term merely describes a general change that occurred during this period as interactive websites proliferated and came to overshadow the older, more static websites of the original Web.[2]

A Web 2.0 website allows users to interact and collaborate through social media dialogue as creators of user-generated content in a virtual community. This contrasts the first generation of Web 1.0-era websites where people were limited to passively viewing content. Examples of Web 2.0 features include social networking sites or social media sites (e.g., Facebook), blogs, wikis, folksonomies (“tagging” keywords on websites and links), video sharing sites (e.g., YouTube), image sharing sites (e.g., Flickr), hosted services, Web applications (“apps”), collaborative consumption platforms, and mashup applications.

Whether Web 2.0 is substantially different from prior Web technologies has been challenged by World Wide Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee, who describes the term as jargon.[8] His original vision of the Web was “a collaborative medium, a place where we [could] all meet and read and write”.[9][10] On the other hand, the term Semantic Web (sometimes referred to as Web 3.0)[11] was coined by Berners-Lee to refer to a web of content where the meaning can be processed by machines.[12]

By Berners-Lee’s statement there, he always expected the Web to have a social aspect.

en.wikipedia.orgNetwork effect - Wikipedia

Replying to @⁨holy_scroller@lemmy.zip⁩

It’s usually only the news subs. But if you make claims that counter Kremlin propaganda you can sometimes summon them.

Like if I just say Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine, it won’t (why? Beats me). But if I say they are killing ethnic Russian Ukrainian citizens as well as Ukrainian men, women, and children, then we have a good chance.

I got others if it doesn’t work.

Edit: (WITNESS ME! Lol) Edit 2: Now I’m impressed. I knew I could do it, I didn’t expect it to work quite so well. I’ll check back in a few hours.

Replying to @⁨dil@piefed.zip⁩

There also seems to be something about the echo chamber that has a weird reinforcing effect. It can become really pathological. People talk about the “reddit hivemind”, but it doesn’t really strike you until see people acting crazy.

One incident that really stuck out for me was a post with a woman holding a sign. I forget what the entire sign said, but the phrase had the word “stupider” in it. I went into the comments, and a ton of people were making fun of her for using that word. Why? Because they thought that it was grammatically incorrect. You’re supposed to say “more stupid”, they said. Well, that’s wrong, and I pointed out to them that it was a word according to any dictionary. I had people arguing with me that the dictionaries were incorrect.

Then there are the AI detectives. These people are fucking insane. It doesn’t matter if you have a statement saying that you don’t use AI. They don’t believe you! They can tell. If they were doing this to my artwork, I would be livid.

Replying to @⁨zemo@lemmy.world⁩

Why can’t you comment while on a VPN? I’m on a VPN right now and I’m commenting.

Also, I hate to tell you this, but reddit is the way it is because it’s so popular. If we had the amount of people necessary to make niche communities thrive, it would be just like reddit. Well, at least as far as the people posting and so on. There wouldn’t be any of the weird administrative stuff because it’s run much differently. But the fact that the system is just like reddit’s means that it attracts the same kinds of people and encourages the same kind of behavior.

Replying to @⁨zarkanian@sh.itjust.works⁩

Reddit has additionally deteriorated because it’s pushing more and more algorithmic content surfacing. The home page there is now closer to a facebook feed than the old default ‘Hot’ sorting. You also get pushed random subs and posts at the bottom of pages. Comments are also buried or surfaced depending on some algorithm not directly tied to upvotes.

Plus a ton of the users are now coming from mobile and are “app first”.

Replying to @⁨wizblizz@lemmy.world⁩

As far as I know my VPN doesn’t use Tor but I’m still blocked. It does keep me from commenting 99% of the time, which I’ve concluded is a good thing, it means I spend less time here, although it sometimes feels bad being a lurker.

Edit: I looked into it and Tor was enabled on that specific VPN profile. Now I can comment while on VPN, which means my only limiter is my own willpower, yikes

Replying to @⁨naught101@lemmy.world⁩

I would say I like it here, imo the format and overall technology is perfect. I am always impressed by how little battery and data voyager uses compared to all the other bloated apps on my phone.

Having said that, I am disappointed that even without feeds and algorithms, it has become a lot more rage inducing and depressing then I would have hoped for.

There is just so many things that affect my life in a negative way being shown here, can’t a guy get a little ignorant bliss about nerdy topics? Or long, deep discussions comparing the philosophies of niche hobbies?

Replying to @⁨Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works⁩

Ok my answer is going to be a little disappointing, but I thought about it for a bit and here’s what I can say…

Usually I read a book or I watch a film, I don’t think I’ve ever done both for the same story. Sometimes there is no equivalent book or film, and when there is, I personally just end up choosing whatever format my gut says to try.

If I’ve imagined a universe and story in my mind (from a book), or had the experience delivered to me (in a film), I don’t want them to conflict so I just choose one. Probably because I see so many debates about this online and I’m just like, “nah I’m not getting involved”.

I’m actually probably the worst qualified person to give an opinion on that!! But I recognize I’m probably a weirdo, as I don’t even watch film trailers or read the synopsis of books before I read/watch them. I just kinda hear about it however that happens, and decide to either skip or jump in. The exception to this being non-fiction or educational stuff, then it matters a bit more.

I guess, I just wanna enjoy (or dislike) a story and leave it at that.

Sorry for the total non-answer. But now you’ve got me curious, what’s your answer? Maybe I’ll make an exception for Grandwolf319 haha

Replying to @⁨Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works⁩

I agree. After being here for a while, I realized that my feed is always depressing and negative, and the comments and discussions are as well, to the point where I pretty much stopped using Lemmy for a while. But I guess the solution is simply to seek out other communities that are more positive - there should be plenty to choose from :)

I think it is kinda the same ‘echo chamber’ problem that other social media has - I feel my own opinions are being reinforced to the extreme, and while I am glad to be with like-minded people, it is also very exhausting.

Anyway, time to go exploring new communities!

Replying to @⁨naught101@lemmy.world⁩

I’m not yet even close to 40, yet I still believe I am one of the “people who built the World Wide Web”, in the sense that I’ve been posting to it for more than 20 years (there are still old forum posts online that I wrote at the age of 10), i.e. before it was something the general public did a lot.

I’m on the one hand proud of how much it has grown and how much more popular it has become; and on the other hand, worried that this has caused governments around the world to pay a lot more attention to it and limit our freedom on it through age verification laws and similar…

Replying to @⁨zaphod@sopuli.xyz⁩

A lot of forum admins just got old. It’s more like the IT nerd boomers and gen-x built the internet. They were middle age when we were kids. Most of us whippersnappers were being babysat by them.

Good luck convincing any normie on the internet today that it was actually a boomer who built the world wide web. All they see is tech illiterate old people who only made the world worse. And for some reason gen-x doesn’t exist to them.

Replying to @⁨Doom@lemmy.world⁩

The WWW was built for everyone.

We let rich assholes steal it out of laziness.

Take for example, Facebook vs MySpace or similar. Making a Facebook is instant, making a MySpace took effort. Setting up a subreddit is instant and free and gets you an immediate registered audience, setting up a vBulletin or similar forum is time-consuming and costs money and getting any traffic is an uphill battle. Same thing with posting- on Reddit just mozy on over to that sub and hit post, on a forum you have to register. Or you want to make videos? Gotta pay for a decent web hosting plan, lots of bandwidth, and deal with encoding, playback scripts, etc. Or just make a YouTube and hit ‘upload’.

So we let big platforms take over the Internet. We gained a fuckton of features and convenience. We didn’t consider what we lost- creativity, and the independence of not having to make everything advertiser-friendly.

Monetization is the other frenemy. It’s great that creators can get paid for their work easily. But what we lose with that is every creator pandering to the algorithm, every video begs ‘like comment and subscribe!’, videos shy away from advertiser-unfriendly topics, and the kid filter brainrot is starting to infect common lexicon (‘my brother got caught watching corn and now he’s gonna unalive himself with a pewpew’ type nonsense).

For that reason I think decentralization and federation are the way out.

Look at forums for example- one of the biggest barriers to entry was registration, getting people to care enough to bother registering. Lemmy fixes that, and you can still make a community as closed and private as you want.

I’m hoping a new group of websites will spring up from this. My only fear is they will all drown in a sea of AI slop.

Replying to an earlier post

Software developers, of all people, should be used to the idea of complex projects not turning out quite the way they envisioned them. We’re still building the World Wide Web, and the Fediverse is part of it. I don’t even think we can call it a proper 1.0 version until every person has access to it, and we’re still quite a ways out from that. After we hit that milestone, there will still be an avalanche of maintenance and QoL improvement work to do. I don’t think the Web is something we’ll finish building anytime soon, if ever.

Replying to an earlier post

Compared with whom? Complexity in general is a rather elusive concept, and since its effects on software are (usually) cumulative over multiple years, devs working in systems that reward quarterly or annual performance metrics are incentivized to ignore it. I don’t think ignoring complexity because your job compels you to is the same as not understanding it.

Most of the devs I’ve worked with grasp the theory of complexity fairly easily once it’s been explained to them, but tend to underestimate their own ability to manage it because they don’t account for how their scrum-addled environment impacts the quality of the code they write. They just look on the tangled mess they’ve wrought and assume the fault is individual, not systemic.

Replying to @⁨queerlilhayseed@piefed.blahaj.zone⁩

I’m a climate scientist, I’ve been a web dev, and I’ve worked with complexity in climate, risk, and management spaces. So, compared to those I guess. I’ve worked with some software devs who are well aware of complexity concepts, but I’ve never really seen any of them take a complexity-first approach.

I fully acknowledge that I have a particular perspective, but I struggle to believe that most software devs in generic workplaces are better at complexity thinking than the ones I’ve worked with, given the content we were working with.

Replying to an earlier post

That’s fair. I’m not trying to suggest that software development makes one uniquely capable of understanding complex systems, or complexity generally; more that the work tends to involve injecting more and more complexity into systems until they’re tottering under their own weight, as the Web is doing now. Managing that complexity ramp (or more often, failing to do so) is a part of maintaining software, and devs should be familiar with the prospect of a project that has morphed into something beyond their expectations.

Replying to @⁨naught101@lemmy.world⁩

Bitch I’m 36 and here on this Lemmy ish to meet the women who will give birth to my first through sixth wives. I have plans for seven onwards. Illuminati shit, y’know? But what I do for the CIA is I easily discredit myself by shaking a loose vestibule of fecal matter from my pant leg before providing education on any number of fun subjects like how MKULTRA was our initial enlightenment program that went and evolved its memetic ass into Star Gate by adding a larger counterintelligence role to the project and this has since and perpetuatively splintered into the modern Anonymous whatchsmacallit or whatever the kids are rizzing their pants about today, and then I follow that completely true series of facts with a rendition of the arts:

8=====D

I make more money than you doing this. Anyways, have a nice day! I have d-tier sex crimes to go boast about. Toodles!

Replying to @⁨combomeal@lemmy.zip⁩

Honestly someone should have just whooped Zucks ass and shut down Facebook entirely. It’s whole original premise was scummy and if only got worse. There was data at the time showing how bad it was. The roll out to various colleges was happening at the same time as a nationwide student health and wellness survey. Mental health dropped significantly whenever access was opened to a college.

Replying to @⁨lordziv@lemmy.nz⁩

Smartphones weren’t really all that popular until 2007, and none of the ones before the iPhone 3G or like the Blackberry’s could really run Facebook all that well. The iPhone never really blew up to the level it’s at now until the 4 arguably, which didn’t come out until 2010 or 2011 (think it was 2010). Facebook had already been pretty infected before then.

Replying to @⁨naught101@lemmy.world⁩

People on here think too highly of themselves and the Fediverse. The overwhelming majority of people here don’t know the basics of programming and of the few that do, the vast majority of them don’t make any contributions. Even to those who do contribute, comparing themselves or the Fediverse WWW and the people who built it rather arrogant, no?

At the end of the day, the Fediverse would be better off going through a reality check. It’s a niche alternative to mainstream social media that trades content for privacy. The tech is neat and the idea behind it is noble, but that’s about it. It’s not going to revolutionize the internet any time soon.

Replying to @⁨Gorilladrums@lemmy.world⁩

The internet itself was once a niche alternative to mainstream knowledge

The way I see it is, that we are all good or even experts at something. The internet is not only about programming alone. The frustration comes from people who 30 years ago spent time discussing and sharing all kinds of knowledge on websites, forums or wikis but now, large corporations charge money to present the same knowledge more conveniently, but not always in the right context

This includes programming, but also gardening, how to ferment cabbage, how to clean a smoking pipe, what to feed guinea pigs.

It is definitely doable, but will take many decades

Replying to @⁨cosmicrookie@lemmy.world⁩

I mean you’re technically right, it is possible in theory. However, do you actually think that will be the case? I personally don’t see it.

The WWW made vast amounts of information remotely accessible and easy to navigate. Likewise, social media made large scale remote and asynchronous social interaction possible. Even though both took decades to evolve into what they are today, they fundamentally transformed how people access information and connect with one another. That’s what makes them revolutionary.

The Fediverse isn’t exactly like that. It’s a neat piece of tech, but it doesn’t exactly solve a problem that couldn’t already be solved. You can already communicate with people remotely, build communities, publish content, and interact with people across different platforms. The main thing that the Fediverse is trying to sell people on is decentralization which comes with perks like extra privacy and control, but which is valuable hence why this place has a genuine userbase, but I don’t see it going beyond that.

As it stands now the Fediverse is just another platform competing in a sea of other platforms. The Fediverse is already around a decade old, and not much has changed during this time. It was niche a decade ago, and it’s still niche now. The spot that it carved in the ecosystem is that of social media alternative that caters to left wing politics and tech bros. Even if it becomes more mainstream, it’ll still be viewed as another form of social media rather than something entirely new and different. The Fediverse is most certainly not like the WWW.