@hsza @drakulix I don't think you're going to be changing anyone's mind with the rhetoric equivalent of "you're wrong because I say you are, QED".

Make an actual argument instead of being dismissive and maybe you will succeed in getting through to people. Or end up learning something yourself.

Because the only people who are going to pay any attention to what you just posted are those who already agree with you. Everyone else just smells "unsubstantiated assertions" all over your post and moves on.

@Karcsesz @hsza @drakulix idk their take is just "what im saying must be correct because its "nuanced" and any non-"nuanced" take where you have actual principals is terrible" then yeah it sounds about right

@Li
The thing about principles is they aren't axiomatic. While you might see swift and absolute pushback against every perceived transgression as having actual principles, my principles are that we should try to gain a complete picture of a situation before we draw conclusions. The fog of war is vicious, and I don't want to hurt people who don't deserve it. Doesn't mean I never do, but it's never my intention.

I've actually watched the presentation that mentioned Omarchy, and Scott really does mainly bring it up to shit on it. He also explicitly mentions how he sees his FOSS work as penance for working at Google et al. I don't vibe with the occasional slop illustrations, but that can be explained as accidental inclusions by someone not as savvy at slopspotting. Have you tried looking for images on the internet lately?

What @drakulix brings up isn't correct because it's nuanced, it's correct because you can verify it at https://tube.kockatoo.org/w/fcXhnNN2eDv4TQWNoMFyN4

@Karcsesz @drakulix principals include 'harming other people is bad" and it is axiomatic, so you cant just compromise on your principals by e.g claiming "but they 'deserve it' .." or any other bullshit -- so it seems the issue is having actual principals.

not ones that are fundamentally meaningless and dependant on your own personal vibes of something- whatever the fuck-

the part about what someone said in the presentation isn't what im taking issue with here either, its that any complaint about say, slop imagery, or complaints about how FOSS is handled are "infighting", or any critique against AI or AI usage or whatever the fuck

@Li
I don't think I follow? If an axiomatic principle is not hurting people and we aren't allowed to compromise on it then we should doubly try to seek nuance to prevent harm coming to people like Scott via witch hunts.

Unless I misunderstood who you were aiming your first message at, in which case I apologise.

@Karcsesz mhm, its multipart; directed at you suggesting its perfectly fine if ""they deserve it"" .. thats not principals, its random authoritative bullshit based on whatever you think about something

i dont disagree with 'dont witchhunt' my issue is* specifically* that any instance of people taking issue about AI, or critiquing someones actions or thoughts is seen as 'infighting'; i cant critique say FOSS, for using AI,

i dont see it as a 'witch hunt' i see it as a bunch of individual actions of someone critiquing a thing, or talking about somthing being harmful, is not something id even consider harmful at all- and is an important part of harm reduciton,

collectively, when alot of people do that, it might kind of turn into something 'harmful', but its; not some coordinated attack

for context; this post was a quick rant, primarily about their insistence on 'nuance' being the best thing;

https://tech.lgbt/@Li/117321952720406143
here is a more uh in-depth answer i wrote later; uh

@Li In a nutshell: by "unless they deserve it" I mean the paradox of tolerance. Sometimes hurting people (hurt = jail, deplatform, not kill) helps prevent even more people getting hurt.

More excitingly, I think we just discovered the crux of our disagreement, thank you!

When I read infighting, I imagined the shit-flinging that happened in some specific circles: people were sharing snippets and screenshots out of context and calling KDE folks nazis for "platforming DHH". I don't have receipts and I don't feel like digging for links for fear of my sanity, so I hope you can trust me on this >c<

But you read infighting and imagined a more general picture of people having an argument. Arguments are good, they help build consensus and discover solutions. And I don't think drakulix meant anything like that by infighting or tried to paint any people who take part in arguments "the most insufferable". Only the loud minority that she wanted to remind of the facts.

@Karcsesz if your gonna endorse prisons and other "harming people in the name of ""preventing"" harm" you are part of the problem, and misappropriate that particular "pardox" and get the complete wrong thing from it .. you clearly havent actually read it

and its not about argumentative, its simply telling them whats wrong and why starting an argument is usually* unhelpful.

but if your gonna endorse oppressive power structures then; i dont want to talk to you

@Li

Edit: We got a bit heated and decided to instead cut it off here. My reply is no longer valid.

@Karcsesz i edited to address the rest of your reply, be a bit less angry at you, you are right i could go over that, im just not up to it right now; really. feel free to look into prison abolition or anarchism or whatever else its pretty much all id say,

but if this is exhibit of : "lefty infighting" then i think im right in my assessment that it is a way to dismiss criticism and / or being called out for shit ..

i dont want to engage any further with this conversation, not because your inherently bad or i cant or .. whatever, you have little social power im fucked over no matter what you think- i just am not up to it, sorry.

@Li
Genuinely, thank you. Infighting averted :)

I understand wanting to dip out, it's a completely valid response. I'll have a read after sleep, though if you later end up having the energy to recommend some specific writing or videos, feel free to poke me about it. You don't owe me anything though, and you are unfortunately right in that I can't do shit to fix your issues.

Good luck with whatever problem troubles you, I hope you will find a way through.

@hsza @drakulix no I would say this is accurate and I agree with it

There are people being horribly insufferable about all of this in bad ways. They make life a living Hell for the rest of us who just want a fucking working desktop and don’t wanna spend the next 50 years of our finite existence arguing about stupid shit

@hsza @drakulix people look down on me for having ever worked at Microsoft. People look down on others for what editor they use (yes that still actually happens). I’ve seen friendships end over OS choice. It’s ridiculous! It’s childish! And anti-AI advocacy is one thing but shitting on people for “not doing enough” is bullshit. It really needs to fucking stop.

And an enormous part of this problem is people like you assuming bad faith from others. Maybe just don’t do that.

@Elizafox @drakulix see i would agree but when a statement follows the tropes of & kinda reads like nuancetrolling bashing on people for demanding better of their peers, and the purpose of a message is what it stands for, i might as well assume it dubious at best. sigh

@Elizafox @drakulix re: having worked at $tormentnexus: do not display it as a credential and do not try to make it out to be positive and youre good

@hsza @drakulix @Elizafox we live in a soceity where working at all is pretty much working in tech at all is pretty close to working for the torment nexus; and where the best "well paying" jobs are also the more terrible ones.. and i do* think there is something here

like leftist infighting sure, but i also dont see a way to avoid leftist "infighting" that allows for correcting them or othwewise still calling them out when their doing something wrong;

because um thats important too and i dont know a way to do so because doing so gets intepreted as "infighting" and when a bunch want to do that over the same issue its a "mob"

that said id like to avoid a "because i dont have a solution to this particular problem it doesnt count" situation too