OEMs: Sorry, best I can do is tripling the amount of pre-installed bloatware that I get kickbacks on, to not only offset the cost but raise profits more
Here in Brazil, a lot of vendors are offering laptops with linux, but they do this just to offer a lower price, and put the most weird distro possible, that no one knew existed, so everyone who buys have to install their own os. The bad thing about it is that it creates a really bad first impression about linux on common users, who mostly end up asking the tech person from the family to install windows for them
Edit: another random fun fact: in order to offer a lower price, some brands around here also ship laptops with freedos, don’t ask me why.
I ask myself the same question. I have no idea. Mine is from vaio and came with some sort of modded debian that looked like a stripped down win xp with custom repos that didn’t even load properly.
You’d think that installing a niche distro like that is more difficult than one of the big ‘plug and play’ ones. Meaning they actively put more work into it, how strange.
Yeah I doubt my chinese MiniPC came with official Windows. Had recommendation tp go through initial set up offline. Not that I kept Windows. I wiped it and put Fedora on it.
Around here, institutions are quire rigorous with that, so stores have to play by the book. Only very small shops can sell pirate software without getting caught
About the distros, Each brand seem to put a different one, and they’re all weird. Mine came with some sort of modded debian with alternate repos, but was very impractical for use, and ended up installing fedora over it.
Exactly, but if we think about it, just putting some random well-established distro would be faster and cheaper than creating their weird modded versions or making contracts with weird firms. Maybe they want to avoid any unexpected legal issues?
Maybe it has some known vulnerabilities? The more reputable sellers I’ve seen around here (I’m also from. Brazil) just ship Ubuntu, it’s usually the sketchier vendors with the weird distros
Which brands have you seen shipping with ubuntu? I’ve seen vaio, samsung, asus and acer shipping with weird distros. They come like that even from the official stores.
They used to have agreements to make it difficult to do so. I don’t know if that’s still the case but it’s pretty awful. I think OEMs had to pay licenses for every machine shipped regardless if it had a windows license.
The other issue is that oems have a large amount of compatibility and support built up over the years for windows. They also know their customers can deal with Microsoft for “support” and ignore driver and support costs for whatever distro of Linux they were to choose.
Sure an OEM could lead the way and show everyone else the path to freedom but think of the shareholders
They used to have agreements to make it difficult to do so. I don’t know if that’s still the case but it’s pretty awful. I think OEMs had to pay licenses for every machine shipped regardless if it had a windows license.
I think that might be losing a $100 discount from the other configuration, possibly because they have excess smaller drives that don’t meet win11 requirements?
I'm not sure what you mean... linux "supports" bloatware just fine, it's just that we don't have much of that kind of software (yet), and i'm sure they could get it all to run through winboat or somesuch if they really wanted to.
The Framework laptops have been selling out with backlog orders now. But with new models recently out, all the Linux ones sold out well before the Windows ones.
I think it just kind of goes to say, if you know a bit about computers, Linux is a go-to. Of course those that are a bit tech-savvy as well would just get a Windows one, clear it off and install the distro of their choice. Plus once upgrade is done, my OS and files are all there like nothing happened. Things like setting up Windows again on a new device or new install is like a full day task.
Queue the new subscription cloud version of Windows that force-feeds you whatever the fuck Microslop has a hard on for this week. Advertisements in your start menu, open video stream everything you are doing, slop token credits if you answers surveys about what you are doing so CoPilot can train off of your screen recordings, un-uninstallable CoPilot/OneDrive of course, free license for Microslop to use anything OneDrive ingests (everything it manages to discover) without limitation…
I’m in the closed beta. Its great! I pay extra for the premium tier - I only have to subject myself to free use by any random shareholder visiting my town on Tuesdays and Thursdays. The base-tier peasants have to give up their whole weekends to shareholders like fuckin losers lol.
That LLM response from the search bar when you were just searching for a file? That’s not free, we have to pay for that! If you didn’t want it you shouldn’t have accidentally triggered it by needing to search for a file. That’s on you.
I am starting to thing this entire thing is some weird orchestrated pile of bull shit to get pwople to stop buyingPCs because its cheaper to use rented VMs with AI spyware built in. Just point your old “slow” compiter at the server in your browser (only spyware Chrome supported). Then they can DRM everytjing and charge subscriptions.
I was gonna say the government will just use it to surveil you, but realised that a “personal cloud PC center” is essentially the same thing except for the branding change (gov. vs big tech).
It was always believed that Windows OS was a “loss leader” for Microsoft.
Windows OS will never show a profit, when you take into account the development and testing time and effort. I mean, a one time purchase that’s expected to be supported for years!?!
Side note: This also explains why Windows 11 is de-evolving into an AI generated, ad ridden, telemetry gathering, cesspool of an OS (“we gotta make money somehow - think of the share holders”)
But, what Windows had done is create a platform for Microsoft to upsell (and vendor lock-in) profitable applications like Office, Outlook, Teams, etc.
However, that business model doesn’t work anymore. As, all of Microsoft’s products are now in the cloud. They’re all subscription bases, which means predictable and indefinite revenue. User’s don’t need to be running on Windows - they just need a web-browser or thin-client. Microsoft already has people (brainwashed into) wanting Office - they don’t need to _force _ people into trying Office.
tl;dr: Developing and supporting Windows OS is a financial drain for Microsoft, and they’re doing everything they can to scuttle it.
Not really. Most computers are sold off a shelf at a big box store, pre-configured and ready to go. The license for windows is flashed onto the hardware, so the staff doesn’t really have a way to remove it from the computer.
If enough people start asking about it then it might persuade big box stores to test the waters with a few Linux-based units or at least an unformated drive.
Big Box stores want you to buy a product and leave. They want fewer skus that work out of the box. Windows sucks ass, but most of the time you end up with a functional, if shitty, PC.
Also - Microsoft and Apple pay for floorspace at the big box stores. What Linux distro is gonna do that?
As I understand it, most enterprises have an agreement with Microsoft for commercial licensing of Windows that lets them pay per user instead of per machine. Given that most enterprises tend to lock in a contract with their hardware provider of choice, it wouldn’t surprise me if they had something in there to omit Windows since they already pay for it directly. Plus enterprises windows has features for managing windows at scale (group policy, centralized auth, etc).
I worked for one of the IT departments at my university and we got Ubuntu machines straight from Dell on occasion. I recall those machines being somewhat quirky if we tried to flash them with Windows later (might have been missing a TPM header, or equally arbitrary hardware requirement, but it’s been like 10 years).
In the consumer space, Framework will also let you skip buying a windows licence as well.
In my company we already use a standardised Windows 11 Enterprise image, so the Windows 11 Pro licences that come with most PCs are of absolutely no use to us (apart from when we resell them, and even then you can get OEM keys legally for a couple of Euros so they’re not worth much).
Always was… just had to find the seller who sells you the laptop without a prepurchased license/preinstalled windows. Sadly was always higher tier stuff that had a choice.
Oh, they fucking do that? Bloody hell, that’s low. Maybe it depends on a country, but when I bought my previous Lenovo around 2019, they had an option without the OS and it was slightly cheaper, and only available for a small subset of laptops.
The only new laptop I got since was Framework, and obviously, they’re also great in this regard, but I feel like they’re outliers.
I would love if pc manufacturers would just ship laptops with e.g. Linux mint or fedora and just knock off the windows licence cost. I don’t even mind if they have to ship it with bloatware, that’s fine, as long as it just doesn’t ship windows. Savvy users will just uninstall it
I would love a tick box setup. Maybe 2 Linux distro options and a windows option for +$X or whatever so ur laptop can arrive ready to set up with the OS desired on it. Should lower cost for customers who don’t need windows, and maybe people on the fence will decide window isn’t worth however much more it cost to get and order the Linux version. The more units are sold with Linux the more incentive there will be to sort drivers for more hardware etc.
Wow, nice. It sounds like Asus makes it the easiest, reimbursing for the license without shipping your machine to them. I don’t understand why the others that will reimburse require physical inspection of the machine.
While I understand your sentiment about Windows, this is how you end up in a world filled with iPad kids who become adults who accept technology that they don’t own.
Walking down the aisles of any store selling computers, I can attest to this. If a company can’t sell a Windows computer, they will simply sell a Chromebook instead.
I didn’t expect my PC to become a better investment than my house - until the bubble pops.
Now I also know the feeling of buying something when it was more affordable. I can now dish out advice like “You should just buy fewer boba teas, so you could afford a PC like I did when buying it with my student loan.”
Every RAM stick I bought in the past 15 years is worth more per GB now than when I bought it… If you bought RAM in 2008 the same is true, I just didn’t buy RAM at that point.
This is about OEMs, which realistically only have 2 choices: Either sell it with windows, or Linux pre-installed.
The general public isn’t going to buy a device without an OS installed.
People that can rub two neurons together have figured out they can get their 10yr old nephew to install something for them… so the included OS means nothing besides how it affects the final price. They’ll buy a laptop with Windows/Linux/no OS or whatever on it. In markets that don’t allow computing devices to be sold without an OS it doesn’t even have to be Linux, the vendors and manufacturers will happily slap FreeDOS on it to bypass the regulation.
Shit, even those who do know Windows will find it daunting.
I just bought a PC over the weekend to replace my PS5 (because fuck Sony) and I installed SteamOS onto it.
I am having a hell of a time figuring it out. It’s such an alien OS to me as a lifelong Windows user. I’m still trying to learn how everything works, like udev rules and the file structure/hierarchy it uses. It’s mad confusing, normal/less tech savvy people definitely wouldn’t be able to handle it.
Personally, what I hate about Linux is terminals and having even less reliable information about what has gone wrong. I will revisit Club Penguin in a couple of years, provided that Valve has further expanded SteamOS to the desktop PC.
In the meantime, I am using Windows Enterprise via Masgravel activation, installed via RUFUS, and paired with ShutUp10 to improve privacy without having to be a guru. ShutUp10 also has a paid version that automatically reverts changes that Microsoft does to privacy settings.
I’d suggest Bazzite instead, still gaming oriented but it’s a lot more user friendly than SteamOS which is moreso designed with the steam deck and steam machine in mind.
Yeah, a friend of mine well-versed in Debian suggested I switch to Bazzite.
The main issue I was having with SteamOS is I couldn’t wake the PC up from sleep with a wireless peripheral of any kind. Went into BIOS and made all the necessary changes and whatnot.
As much as I absolutely despise it, AI was able to assist me with a udev script that worked first try. I was mainly hoping to get my 8bitdo Pro 3 to wake the system since it had a 2.4ghz dongle/station, but even my PS5 controller can wake it now via Bluetooth, no matter how much time has passed.
Now that I don’t really need to worry about switching to the desktop, it’s been a pretty great experience so far.
This. Linux use on the USA is now over 10% in computers. And growing. I hope Europe follows the same path, but it is slow. Growing also. At home we all have ditched Windows years ago.
I have no idea why this makes sense? What about hardware getting more expensive justifies the license for software going up? Is this just because they can?
Pretty much. If hardware is constant lly going up and consumers put up with it, why not get a slice of the pie? It’s not like an OEM buyer will reconsider just because of a few bucks for Windows, if they were going to buy anyway.
It makes sense in terms of opportunism, greed, and for laying three groundwork for a future where you do not own your own computer but do everything in the cloud (because that is where the power is). Remember the whole “you will.own nothing and be happy” thing… so same argument as when businesses moved from self hosting on site. Short version, they want you with a subscription for everything and they can control everything you do.
Volumes are going to be down, but they want the same revenue, so they increase unit price, comfy in the reality that it will still be, percentage wise, not worth it for most to care. Will it make it unaffordable for some? Probably not appreciably more than the hardware is doing all by itself.
I wish that Microsoft licenses of Windows Enterprise were sold to individuals, much like Windows 7 Ultimate. The lack of a good Windows option is why I don the tricorn hat and sail the Masgravel Sea, RUFUS in hand.
Lmfao, here comes manufactures selling their own versions of Debian and Fedora. I bet we’re going to see a rush of manufacturers selling blank no OS PC’s with hardware being the only added on cost.
Sure in terms in computing power. But Microsoft still needs you to be able to access a windows device so that they can push you onto their subscriptions. I think in this case, they think people will just cough up the extra costs to get windows. Of course at one point even regular people will consider Linux. And that is when Microsoft will break.
I feel like Linux needs to be just a little bit more accessible to the tech-illiterate too. It is getting closer but go show some uninitiated person a Linux forum where power users are talking about maintaining their system daily or weekly, the average person is going to still nope out. I run Linux and and Windows, but if Mac could run more games I’d think about giving them a try because they all suck in their own special way.
Some distros are surprisingly accessible to be honest. And with the enshitification of windows people will be very tempted or pushed to make step to Linux. And when the crossover point is there is can go really quickly. More an more companies are deciding that the cost of Microsoft alone is worth the migration. Exposing even more people to Linux. My biggest barrier is that some online games won’t run on Linux but if that changes then why not.
but go show some uninitiated person a Windows forum where power users are talking about maintaining their system daily or weekly, the average person is going to still nope out.
The OS is immaterial, showing anyone uninitiated the shit power users do, you’ll get that reaction. If you show me, a professional windows admin and a homelab linux admin, a Mac power user forum and my eyes will cross. But for windows or potentially Linux, it’s fine. Don’t use the users’ lack of understanding as a mark against it, because that same mark is on every OS.
Linux itself has been usable by the tech illiterate for over a decade. My dead mother could use it just fine after I got sick of reinstalling windows, and she’s been gone damned near that long. Sure, they have to have assistance in getting it installed right now because even the windows terminal terrifies them, but get it installed and a base configuration in place and it takes care of itself for the most part.
That just hasn’t been my experience, or my wife’s. I set her up with a laptop running Linux mint and she’s constantly complaining about needing to look up command scripts to type in the terminal to get things to work. I have been experimenting with different distros for fifteen years and it has been difficult enough that I’m still primarily a Windows user (my gaming and my job both have things I haven’t gotten to work otherwise).
That’s the kind of bridge you need to plan on crossing long before you get there.
It’s like driving a big truck. You get to the bridge and the sign says 5 ton(ne) weight limit and you’re driving a 40 ton(ne) truck. And there is a line of cars behind you that stretches to the horizon. You can’t turn around now. What are you going to do?
Since I’ve been Windows free for several decades now, I will hard agree with you that running your favorite distro is the Way^tm^ But I like I said, I’m under no illusions that my old hardware has a life span. Like me, someday it’s going to die and not even running Arch can fix it. And if there are no old affordable parts or whole computers, what then?
Microsoft seems intent on pushing people to alternatives. Not only did they quietly remove the higher RAM recommendation, but now the OS is more expensive.
So what people are likely to get an underpowered computer that costs more if they have to buy a new laptop. On the tail of Apple recently releasing a relatively nice and cheap laptop to much fanfare, no less.
It sounds like we’re about to see a repeat of the Windows Vista days. Where people hate Windows because it’s slow and horrible, and it is slow and horrible because it’s running on an underspecced machine barely meant to run the previous version of windows.
If you are building a new machine for home use and not starting with Linux it’s crazy to me. The worst that can happen is you try it for a month or two, hate it, and then buy a windows license.
Even at that you can dual boot. You could ween yourself from one to the other to build a daily driver. As Linux has several windows emulators(heroic for example) that you can install and run all your fav window programs anyways.
Windows CentralWindows 11 license fee hikes contributing to higher laptop prices, says reportA new report claims Microsoft has raised the cost of the Windows license by up to 10% for certain OEMs, which is much higher than usual.
