Don't Contribute Anything Relevant in Web Forums Like Reddit
When you post on reddit, instagram etc. you’re giving the company your valuable data. (And it often is valuable, you put your thoughts into it and all that). Consider if you take 15 minutes to create value content, you’d get paid $5 or sth if you were doing it commercially. Now all that value is donated to big tech companies. (that’s the only reason why they have value at all.)
So what’s the problem with that? The problem is that reddit and others can instantaneously put your years-long effort behind a paywall. I’m not joking. Look at these:
when i want to see content on reddit (for research) or instagram (for local community) they don’t allow me to see the data that users have contributed. Reddit claims that it blocks VPNs for “security reasons”, meanwhile i’m using VPNs in browser’s incognito mode to not be tracked. Instagram wants you to sign in sothat they amass more users and can take leverage of the network effect even more.
I can understand restricting who can post to limit bot activity, but reading must always be possible. After all, it’s our data. That’s exactly what happens when you give your data to big companies to “communicate with other people”: your data becomes a source of income for them, at our expense.
The irony is that this argument will probably get more attention on Reddit than on any open forum: Centralised platforms are great for discovery and awful for preservation. Use them as the billboard, not the library. Keep the valuable stuff where you control the rules, the backups and the future.
agreed there, the rule should be, if your goal is to make sure your information is out there… don’t limit it to one place. Post it to Lemmy, Reddit, Facebook, Instagram, keep it on your PC, and a flash drive, and have off site backups.
Exactly. Platform loyalty is a bad archiving strategy. If one platform disappears, changes the rules, or buries old content, your work and links still survive instead of vanishing with someone else’s business decisions.
Interesting, if I’m not misreading that index you have 2007 to 2015, then jan 2024 onwards monthly (at 30-50gb a file) but not the 9 years in the middle
Not holistically, as an archive. When new content is posted on an instance it gets pushed out to any other instances that are subscribed to it. That's the only time the content is sent out. So if you start up a new instance but don't subscribe to anything nothing will be sent to you, and you won't get any historical content sent to you from beforehand. The Fediverse isn't a "flood fill" mesh.
Unfortunately most of the internet is login-gated at this point. And honestly a lot of it is justifiable, lest you let the bots run wild scraping your site until it goes down completely.
a lot of lemmy servers use anubis to hinder bots. it’s quite effective actually. makes the bots do some hard cryptographic riddles before accessing data. insignificant for human users who only read 100 posts but significant for bots who want to read millions of posts.
yes i know. sadly a lot of big scrappers don’t do that, instead they scrap the web interface. which is significantly inefficient so it slows down the service for everyone else.
I’ve been slowly replacing, by hand so it doesn’t trigger their detection alerts, all of my 15 years of comments on Reddit, a lot of it valuable answers to tech questions or programming problems, with a randomly prompted unrelated paragraph of ChatGPT whatever.
When one of the first exodi(?) came, a lot people replaced their comments with random words through scripts, back then it was not as detected and prevented (which Reddit promptly scrambled to prevent), and thanks to people doing that I’ve eventually blocked Reddit from my Kagi altogether, simply because 90% of what I found was either questions with scrambled answers, comments that are just ads from bots, or just unrelated bullshit. So, it does have an actual impact.
LIke you I deleted all my comments and verified they were deleted. When I looked a couple of months later, Reddit had actually restored each and every one.
I’m slowly deleting them again. Maybe this time they’ll stay gone.
Deleting (or editing) comments does not change what the hosting website has, it just updates what they display. so there will be lines in a database saying:
the original comment was “blah”
on the 6th of August 2024 it was changed to “blah2”
and the 20 of January the comment was deleted
There isnt a way for you to remove that unless there is some legal mechanism for you to force them to remove all data about you.
Even with GDPR requests there’s zero guarantee they actually comply with deletion requests. They may decide to show something that may lead to think they have complied. That’s it…
That’s why I went with editing them to something random, unrelated to the thread, but still a feasible paragraph, in hope that this won’t trigger this mechanism.
Unfortunately, I think there is a pretty easy way for them to detect comments that were deleted/edited with the intent of making them useless to Reddit: check the age of the comment/post when it was modified.
Whether they would bother to do this is a different question.
I’d be interested in your results a few weeks/months from now.
i think the reason reddit deleted both my accounts, was so that i couldnt modify or delete my contributions.
after the accounts are deleted, they probably still have copies saved somewhere. but it revokes my access to remove or tamper with my content.
VPNs prevent the site from attaching an IP address to the site visit
While this is a popular selling point that VPN providers like to advertise, it's pretty misleading in terms of what this actually means with regards to tracking. Realistically, this does almost nothing to prevent sites from tracking you. They don't see you at your home IP as "John Smith" and see you on your VPN as "Hans Schneider", instead they see you at your home IP as "John Smith" and on your VPN as "still John Smith, but either traveling in Germany or using a European VPN".
Advertisers have tens of thousands of individual data points on nearly every single person who uses the internet at all for any purpose. All a VPN does is obfuscate ONE data point. That's less than 1% effectiveness at hiding your identity from advertisers. A VPN does basically nothing against all the other fingerprinting methods advertisers have.
Think of using a VPN like speaking into a walkie-talkie: your voice comes out at a different location, but if the person on the other end already knows what your voice sounds like, then they still know who you are, just not necessarily where you are. Unless you're taking other efforts to mask your voice, the walkie-talkie isn't protecting your identity in any way. Likewise with a VPN, if you go to the same sites from the same devices and log into the same accounts and otherwise engage in the same online behavior, the VPN is only hiding where you are, but it's still trivially easy for an advertiser to determine who you are.
This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, because VPN providers harp on this idea so hard in their advertisements that it tricks people into thinking VPNs are capable of things that they just simply are not.
yeah i get your point but that’s not what i meant. i’m using VPNs to do google searches, for example, in incognito browsing tab. so google knows the 10k searches i did, but it cannot connect them to each other, as session cookies between them are deleted each time i close the browser (which is about every few minutes). and i don’t log in to any account in the incognito tab either, so it can’t use account identities as fixed points either. and it cannot associate the queries by IP address either.
edit:
after seeing this website … amiunique.org/fingerprint i get what you mean now. i have to think about this.
Not the OP you asked, but realisticly, your single best option is not giving any data. Use settings to prevent cross-site tracking in your browser where available, but really just post as little information as possible. The less you reveal, the less they will know.
Uss the Librewolf browser. You need to turn off reduceFingerprinting and turn on WebGL to make some sites work, but even then if you go to CreepJS you will see that compared to Chrome, there is much less information like battery level, actual core/RAM count, etc for sites to use.
And the browser has uBlock Origin to block ads and trackers, although turn off the Quick Fixes list as it might break YT bot protection and shadowban comments.
I think you are overestimating the capacity and will of advertisers to actually identify people like that. The data may be available for it in theory, but it’s unlikely they built the systems to make it happen because they don’t really have much economical interest to do so. They care about market segments, not individuals.
I had to work a bit on this kind of things.
The little advertisers aren’t the scary ones. It’s Meta, Alphabet and Amazon that are scary and absolutely do fingerprint in this way. That said, the scale of these systems really does roll right past the individual user, unless someone really cares about YOU, but unless you’re doing something wrong, they don’t really give a shit. CSAM, illicit substances, amd more could probably be pretty easily rooted out by these systems, but that wouldn’t make-line-go-up so it doesn’t happen.
A few browser extensions can help with that further. UBlockOrigin, NoScripts, CanvasBlocker, Privacy Badger, Consent-O-Matic, etc. Maybe Decentraleyes but I don’t fully understand that one yet.
Then there’s DNS proxying and/or DoH, and a variety of other settings that can be tweaked for maximum privacy.
Any one of these things alone will leave holes, but putting them all together can significantly reduce your trackability and fingerprint. Of course it’s a trade-off because some of these will break websites, but most allow granular exceptions so you can still use the sites you need.
In any case, a VPN is an important part of that, but the main purpose is to make it harder for your ISP to track you. Obscuring your IP from web hosts is just a bonus.
Firefox Multi-Account Containers lets you keep parts of your online life separated into color-coded tabs. Cookies are separated by container, allowing you to use the web with multiple accounts and integrate Mozilla VPN for an extra layer of privacy.
I bet you’ll be surprised at the methods companies use to fingerprint you - browser agent, Do Not Track enabled/disabled, timezone, screen size… not accepting cookies is also a data point to filter you by.
Opens your eyes quite a bit, heh? It’s like you start seeing the matrix. Then you think of your friends and family, the “normies”, and realize they have zero chance. We have all become a cog in this advertising machine.
NoScripts and CanvasBlocker can help reduce your fingerprints.
Basically, most websites these days run javascript to harvest this info from your device. Sometimes they even integrate it into their basic functionality so that it breaks the site if you block it.
Not entirely true - yes, there’s scripts to harvest even more data… but I run NoScript and even without JavaScript, Firefox in incognito mode still broadcasts things like my screen resolution, browser agent, and even that I’m not running JavaScript which itself is an ID marker - only 1.57% of the site’s stored fingerprints are not running JavaScript.
I’m running this on my Android phone - I think the Mac browser agent is tied to Firefox Incognito, but I’m not sure. It’s not a huge help though if only 1 data point is changing.
thats good. but it doesnt cover behavioral fingerprints(indications).
fyi i have seen some moderately effective tools that help to fight against this. but generally rare. people understimate how much their data is worth and the amount of development, that companies are willing to invest to break every privacy tool
Imagine a restaurant where diners place orders through a discreet slot on the kitchen door.
The web user is the diner who slips a note into the slot asking for a specific dish.
The web‑service backend is the chef who receives the note, prepares the meal, and slides it back out the slot for the diner to collect.
Now, the diner adds a bizarre request: “Please serve the food, but I never want you to know you ever cooked it.” In practice, the chef can’t fulfill this—once he’s touched the ingredients and used the stove, his hands are inevitably stained, and the kitchen’s heat tells the story. Likewise, when a web user asks a server to fetch data, the server must process the request, so it inevitably knows it handled that request, even if it can’t tie it back to the individual’s identity.
Ad‑blockers, cookies, IP addresses, user‑agents, and browser signatures are like the various “fingerprints” a diner might leave on the restaurant’s doorstep:
Cookies are tiny crumbs the diner drops on the floor while walking to the slot. The chef (or later staff) can later sweep them up and infer that the same person visited before.
IP address is the diner’s shoeprints on the hallway carpet leading to the kitchen—an easy way to trace where the diner entered from.
User‑agent / browser signature is the unique style of the diner’s napkin (its color, fold, and logo). Even if the napkin is discarded, the pattern tells the chef which brand of napkin was used.
Ad‑blockers are like the diner wearing a cloak that blocks the kitchen staff from seeing the crumbs he drops, trying to keep the chef from noticing the usual “tipping” (ads) that would normally be left behind.
Just as no chef can truly be blind to the fact that he cooked a dish, a web service inevitably knows it processed a request, and the “fingerprints” left behind (cookies, IP, user‑agent, etc.) let it—or any intermediary—recognize or track the diner unless the diner takes strong steps (like using a cloak or wiping the floor) to hide those traces.
I think that’s an overly reductive analogy. Of course the backend web server knows what it processed on its own hardware, but it doesn’t need to know the IP that the request originated from (if using a VPN) and it certainly doesn’t need to fingerprint the browser with hidden scripts.
Likewise, the browser probably doesn’t even need to make that information available to those scripts. There are extensions to block some of it, but apparently not all. And blocking some things can break some websites.
But there’s no reason the chef in the back should be running a forensic analysis on the fingerprints on the ticket, the footprints on the dining room floor, or the crumbs swept up at the end of the day. And if you suspect that they will do this, then it should take be overly complicated to wear gloves, and maybe some boot covers, and possibly a full hazmat suit if you’re really worried about dropping crumbs and dander.
Not that all that should be necessary, because it shouldn’t be standard practice for web servers to collect all this data to begin with…
That's because Reddit bans VPN IP addresses. You still have an IP address when using a VPN, and VPN IPs aren't exactly secret information. Reddit blocks all the VPNs they know of with an ever-updating blacklist.
The concept of "paying for something" isn't limited to "paying with fiat money/currency". One can "pay for something" by "paying with their attention/time", one can "pay for something" by "paying with PII" (personally-identifiable information), both situations of which are present in both Reddit's and Meta's "Sign up to read this".
Sure, Reddit and Instagram/Facebook are "free" insofar the user isn't required to do any kind of bank/credit card/cash/cryptocurrency payment, but the user ends up paying with all the time they spend in these platforms while seeing (thus, giving part of their attention span) advertisement, and also hand personal data.
When it comes to PII, even if the user set up a pseudonym and a generic PFP, the user is still handing, even if unbeknownst to the user themselves, their preferences, opinions, etc. Even lurkers end up handing PII whenever they stop at certain posts to read/see it (thus, signaling one's preferences) or use specific search queries (again, signaling one's preference).
That's not what a VPN or incognito modes do.
The incognito mode may not prevent tracking (especially because of the IP address), but rotating VPNs may do. Notice I used the word "may", not "will do", because of the behavioral tracking I mentioned earlier, as well as other technical aspects (DNS leaking, browser fingerprinting, etc).
People who can afford being an actor/actress and performing very convincing alt-personas behind a VPN IP address could theoretically fool platforms enough for the person not to be tracked by their gait... except this dramaturgical skill is a behavioral tell (gait) itself. And the usage of a VPN-assigned IP address is another tell.
What I’m particularly concerned about lately is the growing share of online forums that don’t even publish their content on the web.
The most famous example of this type of forum is probably Discord.
As those of you on Lemmy know, many people chose Discord as an alternative after Reddit’s deterioration.
Hasn’t this problem already escalated to the point where access to content isn’t guaranteed not only to some bots but even to individuals without accounts?
Shouldn’t those who love the web be extremely wary of online communities that don’t even try to be based on the web?
That’s what I think.
If search engines truly only show the “existence” of forums, then the open web is truly over.
I don’t think that we should be wary of them. It is only natural that when the whole web is overrun by bots, these gated communities will pop up. It’s an easy way to keep a lot of bad traffic out, while a space for users to interact and be authentic.
There really is a place for closed forums of enthusiasts where not everybody can get access and where you can talk without being indexed by Google, fed into LLMs and analyzed by Palantir. There is a place for an open discussion on a public square, a place for a chat among mates in a pub and a scientific conference where people can speak freely about their research without fucking Elon Musk leading an army of trolls into the audience
My biggest beef with this new shaky-information world is that they hardly ever accurately date-stamp and time-stamp things anymore. This took me less than a minute to type and I find it mostly worthless so I’ll be donating this one for free.
Yeah, my phone clock doesn’t display exact seconds by default and I didn’t feel like gambling with the posting delay anyway, and I also didn’t feel like specifying a timezone offset because I hate timezones (guess what field I’m working in), so I just converted it to UTC and omitted the seconds.
I hate that “you were blocked by network security” page so much. Fucking smug fedora wearing neck beard with his arms crossed. What the fuck fo you think is going to be the difference of someone using a VPN vs being logged in with a VPN on network security? You’re just lying to me reddit.
They’re likely on the hook to prove to their investors that usage statistics are real people and not bots. All the changes they’ve made do that as well as “keep people safe” or whatever.
A lot of people “confided” in reddit in the past by making an anonymous account to ask a question about something they didn’t feel comfortable asking in real life due to social consequences, legal consequences, or perhaps mortal consequences depending on what was asked and what country the asker was in. Those people should consider that reddit could’ve sold them out.
With the new no VPN/must login rules people should consider that selling them out is reddit’s business model. Posting on the privacy subreddit is hypocracy at this point. Would a question about the privacy of reddit itself stay up on r/privacy?
Lemmy is ready for those people I believe. They just can’t be told about it via reddit.
I still host 3 websites that I publish anything technical or helpful on. It really doesn’t cost much to do and is helpful for me to be able to go back to as reference myself.
I use Lemmy (obviously as I’m posting here) and Cat’s Arch Redlib (catsarch.com) to view Reddit. I sometimes post on the r/poisionai subreddit, as I am disgusted with how AI has been used in general, but that’s a different topic. Also, if you’re using Chrome incognito, you can still be tracked, even with a VPN on and without signing in to your account. Might want to switch browsers to reduce your digital fingerprint. Just a suggestion. Assume anything Google is tracking you at some level for behavioral or personalized advertising. Again, that’s a different topic, but thought it was worth adding.
After a decade of reddit and over a half million karma I quit for multiple reasons. Primarily the cash grab for the API and forcing the reddit app, but also the explicit acknowledgement that the mods and community were absolutely being exploited for unpaid labor and anyone who didn’t bend a knee could get fucked.
We need distributed webscrapers going on refit 24/7. Distributed because they shouldn’t be allowed to tell whether or not a request is a user or a scraper
Lots of both legal and illegal devices in people’s homes surreptitiously use their connection to do that already. E.g. Bright Data sells proxy access with 400M+ residental IPs via its SDK embedded in lots of smart TVs. AI scrapers love this one weird trick!
Every time I visit someone’s house or coffee shop or whatever, I create a new reddit account and see how long it takes to get banned from as many subs as possible
It’s pointless anymore to try infoposting on reddit.
Take for example the soldering subreddit. The info on that sub is that you must slather everything in flux in order to solder properly. A guy posted yesterday citing 40 years of experience, saying that’s not how he’s done it. The comments are a mess.
Another post today, someone asks about air filtering the solder smoke. The consensus in the comments is it’s not a big deal. You can literally measure the particulate matter yourself to see how bad it is. Basically an average residential room size, say 100-200 sq/ft. You’ll basically hotbox yourself with smoke.
Another one that’s seen less often but the false idea persists. It’s that capacitors never short and burn out. I don’t know how or why that false idea floats around, but I’ve seen it over the years. I’ve replaced tons of caps that spontaneously combusted. Both electrolytic and SMD caps. Sometimes they just fail and short. No other fault.
Reddit is full of bad info. It’s site that relies on word of mouth and popularity contest. You do not build a knoweldge base of technical information this way. You’re getting an entropic game of telephone. That’s all reddit ever was and ever will be. It’s flawed paradigm by default.
A paradigm that lemmy is built off. So don’t you all be getting the idea that good knowledge is going to be getting sourced from here either.
The only subs that kept me around for years was r/electricians and r/askelectricians, which admittedly does usually have pretty accurate answers and info, and sometimes I just like to riff about work. Wrong answers get downvoted and removed at an almost scary speed.
But finally after like years of the same exact questions from homeowners that are just like “how do I wire a smart switch? What’s a switch loop / what do you mean my white wire is not a neutral? I took apart this mess of wires and didn’t take before pics how do I put it back together?? Do I need grounds???” I could go on lol. But I just realized how much a huge waste of time it all was. I wouldn’t call any of the troubleshooting or commenting “fun” it was just a way to pass time. I guess it’s better people get real answers than trust AI because a lot of time they try that first and post some of the answers these chat bots gave them and wheeeewwww boy are they some schizo hallucinated bullshit haha
I’ve been off all social media other than Lemmy for a while now. Since it’s not as active here it’s been better for me personally. It’s easy to refresh reddit and get a new thread every few minutes. On here I notice I’m seeing the same articles a couple times in a row and that’s my cue to hop off and read manga or play chess online instead or something.
Also yeah caps can go bad lol. We had these giant 18" tall ones on the solar industrial sites I worked at. This was 10 years ago so I forget the value I just know we had dozens of them each on 6 AWG wire. Part of our maintenance was to check for leaky ones. Because they’d leak then they’d eventually fail and then without the proper filtering for the system, usually the cabinet would catch on fire.
I was on a few narrow interest subs. I mean really narrow interest. There were folk they’d turn to for reliable historical analysis, folk they’d turn to for reliable cultural analysis, I was one of their data crunchers (I could basically find the line entries that looked wrong and the folk who had time to do more in depth forensic bullshit could dig into them) I mean on one of those narrow interest subs some people thought they were taking down a cult, I just helped shine a light on things. And learned about cults of course, can’t start a good cult without knowing how the toxic ones work
Early iterations of the community did try to incorporate these features.
But simply tapping the sign that reads “Go read the wiki on this solved issue” doesn’t generate the kind of traffic and community participation that repeating the same copypasta every month or two does. Also, god forbid one of your mods does something like…
post something unPC in a Politics community
argue with content from a native advertiser
piss off an admin… somehow
sign in from a device in a way that triggers an automated unchallengeable ban
fail to constantly scour your community of shitposts
Plenty of the old subs have been hollowed out, transferred, or otherwise denuded of their professional contributors for some stupid reason or another. And now the site is so aggressively policed that you can’t really join (much less re-join once you’ve been booted) to add anything useful.
This has been the OG Wikipedia’s fate as well, with mods getting older and links going stale and new contributors all getting hyper-policed for fear of bots, marketing accounts, and shitposters.
Small forums full of active users are more reliable for useful information than big forums full of lurkers and attention whores. That’s not unique to Reddit. Just very obvious, given the long and deplorable history of the platform.
Meanwhile I’m playing Oxygen Not Included, and like half the time I look something up about the game, half the results are on reddit. There’s a lot of accumulated stuff on there that’s still helpful.
Of course, any false or outdated info will quickly be obvious when you start up the game again. Lower stakes than soldering safety.
I left a long time ago. Don’t think they were as trigger happy back then, so they never got the chance. You think I should open an account and start posting reasonable criticism of disinformation so they can ban me and I get to be one of the cool outcasts rather than a boring old emigrant?
I never got banned at all. The toxicity of the company itself pushed me out about 3 or 4 years ago. Seeing how reddit was getting enshitified so fast and in real time was the queue to just delete everything and get the fuck out. No regrets.
I haven’t got banned, and I still visit reddit for communities that don’t have an alive lemmy equivalent, but in the past year I’ve used lemmy a lot more, it’s better for conversations.
